Culling Healthy Animals

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'm aware and I'm sure that there are probably many threads over there that might talk about killing healthy animals in order to "save them from a fate worse than death" or "save the hobby by reducing out footprint" or whatever the line of the day is ... I think my point was more that this isn't a fresh discussion that the OP just decided to "bring to the place that matters" as he claims ... he's been weaving this web for a long time and after 6 months of trying to sell it on his own forum (and failing miserably) he's decided to try and validate his actions by attempting to martyr himself in front a whole new group of people.

Blessings,

-adam

---

Fair enough; it just wasn't 100% clear from your post that you knew about the exact situation regarding that discussion over there, so I thought I'd be sure we were all on the same page, so to speak.

Okay, you work with carpets, so let's talk carpets. If you're so concerned about keeping lines pure, why do you create mutts? If you have to feed the mutts off to other creatures (for whatever reason), why do you create them in the first place? It sounds to me like you're as much a part of the "purity" problem as anyone else who creates hybrids.

Then again, I don't really quite understand the difference between "mutts" and hybrids. If everyone is so concerned about the purity of the lines, why do they cross different species of carpets?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eventide

If everyone is so concerned about the purity of the lines, why do they cross different species of carpets?

---

There is demand for morphs, and combo morphs. If someone wants an albino jaguar carpet python, it has to be a cross of subspecies.

In addition, aussie carpet pythons can no longer be exported, so except for illegal exportation there is no source for new morphs. This means that designer breeding is limited to a few base morphs, selective breeding, and crossing subspecies.

The problem is that if someone is trying to create an albino jaguar carpet python, they will create "unwanted" crosses that don't even carry the morph genes. These animals are a threat to purists where crosses like albino jags are not. No one will mistake an albino jaguar for anything except what it is, they know it has to be a cross, and it will not be represented as anything except that.

The issue with carpet pythons is that there is a pretty big demand and interest in combo morphs, especially since base morphs are so limited. However, the interest in normal looking "mutts" is worse than the interest in normal male ball pythons, it is considered by a number of people into carpet pythons to be detrimental to their hobby.

In short, breeders interested in selective breeding for looks are at odds with those interested in creating combo morphs, because the selective breeders generally prefer animals that are as pure as possible, to best represent their subspecies. People who are interested in both combo morphs and selective breeding can be at odds with their own desires in the animals they produce.

I hope this answered your question..

A note: I am not a purist, I thoroughly enjoy some of the crosses that have been made and think they are quite interesting animals. However, I do very much dislike animals being sold as anything other than what they are, and it gets hard to keep track of all crossings across many generations as animals pass from one person to another.

Woah. 19 pages.

Uhh, I think both sides have their own beliefs and it should be up to their own personal choices to do what they'd like with their animals. This discussion is going reach a dead end--both sides are passionate with opposing views and beating eachother's posts to death isn't going to do anything.

Can't we just say we know where each side's coming from and leave it at that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Can't we just say we know where each side's coming from and leave it at that?

---

Are you kidding? This is the internet; arguments don't die until someone mentions Hitler, if even then! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Can't we just say we know where each side's coming from and leave it at that?

---

I'm sorry, but I cannot. I am morally opposed to the idea of the wholesale killing of healthy animals for no other reason than they're not worthy of investing the time needed to place them into a good, responsible home.

There are literally hundreds of husbandry practices and ideologies in this hobby/business that I don't agree with, but I accept ... but advocating the killing of "lesser" animals is wrong and something I will never accept.

These are not iPods, they're not "widgets", they're not some disposable product that can just be thrown away on a whim ... they are a life and they deserve better.

Everyone else might be willing to shut up and just pretend that it's OK to kill healthy animals because they're "cheap", or hard to find a good home for, or a "mutt", or whatever excuse you want to make for it, but I am not. In my opinon, the mere idea is a reflection of everything that's wrong with this hobby/business.

Blessings,

-adam

So you create these hybrids to cross supspecies, thereby coming up with your morphs. So when you have a non-morph or ugly hybrid you kill it. How long is it then until you or someone else needs that same hybrid to breed? Have you even tried marketing them to other breeders? Think of the years they'd save by not having to create that hybrid.

You compare normal and hybrid "undesireables" to the dogs and cats in shelters. Saying there's too many and they are culled for much the same reason. The big difference here is those dogs & cats were adoptable in the shelter, on display with people coming daily to look at them. While the arguement over animal shelters and euthanasia is a whole different one this situation and yours, where you don't even try to home the snakes, arent't similar in the least. Those dogs & cats had a chance, your snakes never did.

You're not offering any proof, any concrete facts, about how this is "bettering the hobby." Where's the proof? Speculation is just that and I could sit here all day arguing the moon is made out of cheese and it must be true because you can't prove it's not cheese up there. You're speculating that the way a person would treat one thing versus another is the same for an animal. I disagree. People who keep pets, as would be the situation with a normal male, do form attachments to them. I'm sure there are situations of neglect and abuse with "low value" animals but can you prove to me there isn't any, or there is significantly less for more valuable ones? To the point that would justify never even giving the animal, or its possible happy owner, a chance?

The fact you feed snakes you breed is not what is being argued here. While a lot of readers and respondents wouldn't do so or perhaps disagree with it the arguement is over how you are handling your "undesireables."

Your contradictions and speculations aren't gaining you any credibility. I sincerely hope that your full name or business name comes out here so that I can avoid your business like a plague.

adam, jlc, rabernet, and wilomn are on FIRE :gj:

i admire shawnc for debating for what he believes in and wont give up, but i'd hafta agree with wilomn and adam, that u r just giving the WRONG thing a fancy name. as adam said "call it what you want", its still wrong :oops:

good topic.
this is the debate about the fine line between breeding for the love of the animals, and farming for the profit. very very VERY fine line.

saving all the points being made lol. :D

Thanks for the explanation, Mainbutter!

It's a mistake to think that lowering the supply of CBB animals will somehow reduce the number of imports. People in the US pay attention to the bottom line. If we have a problem educating people NOW, why on earth would you think they will listen when you tell them they should pay more for a CBB baby instead of a CH baby from a chain pet store?

The only way you're going to reduce importation is by reducing the demand for imports. The demand will ONLY go down when CBB animals are so plentiful that they are CHEAPER than imports. When it is no longer economically wise for people to import ball pythons instead of buying them from US breeders, they will stop importing them. It's not exactly free to send a crateload of snakes from Africa to the US. The wholesalers do not care where they came from, as long as they can supply all the retailers who purchase in bulk from them. So, ball pythons are worth 8 bucks apiece? You can get a kitten for free. That's not the point.

If you want to improve things for ball pythons in captivity, you must educate people. You have to approach it on two fronts. If you make the animals inaccessible to them, they won't care, and they won't pay attention. The only way they will care is if they can have one themselves. Reducing the supply and raising the prices accomplishes NOTHING. The animals are not considered 'disposable' because they are cheap. They're NOT actually cheap--I already made that point. Have you checked the price in your local chain store for an ordinary ball python? I'd be happy to get that price for a male pastel. :P

Peoples' attitude towards reptiles in general has to be changed--they need to see them as living, feeling beings that deserve care as much as a cat or a dog does. Right now, people care very little more for them than they do for goldfish (fish are treated most cruelly, especially when you consider they are vertebrates with full capability for feeling pain, and the same emotional range as reptiles). An expensive koi may be looked after well, but it is still 'just a fish'.
THAT is the attitude that has to be worked against. By assuming that people will get veterinary care for an animal regularly, and making that assumption part of your speech, part of all your care sheets, part of your advice--by making sure they have proper care information available plentifully. By publicly condemning retailers that have inadequate conditions for their animals. By taking YOUR animals down to the public library and giving a talk on reptile care. There are SO many ways you can help. Of course, they all require more work than tossing a snake into a monitor cage and patting yourself on the back for saving it from being purchased by a newbie.

Now, on the other hand, the folks saying there is something inherently wrong about ending the lives of animals in a breeding program because you think they are imperfect--that's completely hypocritical coming from anyone who has a rat or mouse feeder colony, and culls any animal that shows signs of a problem, temperament issue, or just doesn't make the cut as a future breeder. Which most of us who raise feeder colonies do routinely. I completely deny there is any difference between this and raising an animal for any other purpose. It certainly does not matter to the animals why you are raising them. I don't think you get brownie points from the universe for valuing one animal higher than another, or treating it differently because you do. I like rats. I think they're cool animals. I still raise them to feed my snakes, and I cull any of them that bite me immediately. I cull the ones I don't like the colors of, that act too nervous, or that seem less healthy or less vigorous. They all wind up as snake food.

I'm not disagreeing with culling normal ball pythons because I think they're more important than rats in the grand scheme of things. I disagree with it because A) public perception would value them higher (whether it's right or wrong--of course, rat fanciers would disagree!), B) it's a waste of income, and inefficiency just bugs me C) it's bad for the hobby and detracts from efforts to end importation by increasing the supply of normal cbb balls available to pet stores (which used to be a very deliberate goal set forth by the reptile nation, and HAS worked with some species already), and D) the animals you're feeding them off to don't require snakes as food, and snakes are difficult to produce in comparison with readily available feeders that those animals can eat.

If you were feeding them to stubborn king cobras, I honestly wouldn't have any problem with it. There are a number of ophiphagus species out there, and some individuals can be quite stubborn about refusing to accept rodent prey. Ball pythons are fairly large at hatching, and thus would make more substantial prey items for such species--being cbb, they would be parasite-free, and thus safer than feeding WC garters or other wild caught species. But that isn't the case here.
Heck. You could contact people who keep ophiphagus species, and offer them your unwanted snakes at a discount, and I bet they would be glad for the offer. That would still be a better choice than the one you're making.

This is a justification of wasting perfectly good ball pythons as food for animals that don't actually need to eat them, due to the mistaken idea that their lives have no other value.