Culling Healthy Animals

[wilomn]

I a not the only person who has noticed this BTW. Would you like me to send you the PMs that I have gotten since the thread started thanking me for putting you in your place?

S~

I'm still waiting.....

So, either your offer was full of crap, something you seem to have great familiarity with, you're a liar and don't have any, or you're a coward on top of being morally bankrupt.

[ShawnC]

Ok, I had a very good point here, but it was apparently lost in the noise. I'll try again.

Ball pythons are BEING IMPORTED INTO THE US IN HUGE NUMBERS. Every year. Most of them are captive-hatched babies, but you get some wild caught animals coming in as well.

The above WILL NOT change if breeders produce fewer normals. In fact, imports will naturally increase, as the value of those imports will increase, because the current demand is more than enough to account for the supply.

People like ball pythons. People routinely pay between 60 to 80 bucks for a normal male ball python, to a pet store. That ball python is usually an imported CH snake. Perhaps from where you are standing, 60 bucks is a disposable amount of money, but I think it's actually a fair chunk of pocket change, and the average person will not deliberately allow harm to come to an animal with a price tag that high. The fact these animals sell for $8 apiece wholesale doesn't mean that's what they retail for!

An increase in the production of captive bred snakes in the US MAY mean a reduction in the number of imports, as it becomes less financially sound to import them. The only way to reduce the number of imports is to make ball pythons plentifully available in the US for those who want them. Captive bred animals are generally healthier and fare better than CH babies do. By increasing the supply of CBB babies, we may be leaving more ball pythons in the wild--one can hope. If you decrease that supply, more balls will most certainly be yanked from the wild, because this entire business follows the law of supply and demand. It doesn't matter if YOU think there are too many low-priced balls on the market--the market clearly disagrees!

Yes, I do sell my normal males to the pet trade. I'll probably even wind up selling some normal females to the pet trade, eventually. I consider doing so to be beneficial to the hobby (as more people who want pets get healthy snakes rather than parasitized wild caught ones), and beneficial to ball pythons in general (while wild populations are stable, they certainly won't stay that way if they pull more of them from the wild to meet an increasing demand).

Do some people mistreat animals? Yes. Should people be prevented from having animals because some of them MIGHT mistreat them? That's exactly the mentality our hobby is battling at the moment! The right to NOT be lumped in with people who commit crimes. The solution is education, not banning, not restricting supply/access.

Those who are just starting out should have a good experience, buying an animal that is already healthy and doesn't require more than a routine checkup rather than meds and intensive care. Sick parasite-ridden animals in pet stores hurt our hobby. They make the entire industry look cruel. We should do all we can to make imports obsolete.

So, please address THIS argument--I have explained why NOT selling normal males is BAD for ball pythons, and BAD for the hobby.

This is an excellent point. I would like to see us not import at all, and the value of captive bred normals be at a higher point, to prevent them from becoming impulse buys. Right now, we are doing BOTH. You can't stop the importation until you get buyers to be willing to pay more for a captive hatched animal, which is next to impossible to do when you are competeing with imports. Thats where some changes can be made as well. I completely agree with you. Education would be our only option at this point. What would probably work best is limiting the supply of normals, but raising the price on them, and teaching people why they are more expensive than an imports. Right now we are trying to beat import pricing...which is sort of counter productive I think.

S~

[ShawnC]

I am going to duck out for a while. maybe a day or so, and see how things evolve. I am at work now, and I am tryingt to respond to people and get things done at the same time, and it's not working well So, I am going to take a break until tonight or this weekend.

I really do appreciate those of you who are going over this with me. Like I said, it's an interesting topic becuase people get so wound up, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. Thank you Admin for allowing this thread to happen, and continue, and thanks for noone gettinsg warnings when they got a little worked up, and managed to keep it from exploding is a foolish post. I am going to get some work done.

S~

[ShawnC]

Shawn, a big part of the problem with this "debate" is we're coming at it with two completely different paradigms about life.

I believe life has value beyond whatever random $$$ might be associated with it. I believe part of that value, for some lives, is to be food for others....even IF some of those animals are snakes.

You believe that because it's OK to allow an animal to die for the purpose of becoming food, then it is therefore OK to kill an animal for whatever purpose or convenience suits your fancy.

The difference might seem subtle, but it's worlds apart, and the two cannot be reconciled. You simply can't comprehend my point of view...and frankly, I can't yours, either. I can follow your arguments...sure...but I don't believe your "logic" can justify the lack of value that you place on life in general.

And that value, or lack of it, is entirely your call to make...as I've already mentioned much earlier in this thread. They're your animals, and you'll do with them as you see fit. And I never said no one else does it. I've no doubt that many do. The "industry" is rife with people who are in it for the money and care little for the lives they choose to bring into the world. And I might even be surprised (sadly so) by the discovery of the truth about what some "big breeders" do behind closed doors. BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT, NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT.

YOU are the one being hypocritical, by your own words. YOU decide that for some animals, simply being born is a fate worse than death...and yet YOU willingly make the choice to continue to bring as many of these "unwanted" animals into the world as is necessary to meet your own hobby goals.

You can dismiss all the opposing arguments you wish as "too emotional" or "misinterpreting your words"...but that doesn't change the fact that many, many people are morally opposed to the way you choose to run your business. No amount of justification or "debate" is going to change that.

I appreciate the frankness of this post Judy. Thanks for being honest with me. There will always be disagreement on this topic, but just the fact that you see my point for what it is, means alot.

S~

[wilomn]

I am going to duck out for a while. maybe a day or so, and see how things evolve. I am at work now, and I am tryingt to respond to people and get things done at the same time, and it's not working well So, I am going to take a break until tonight or this weekend.

I really do appreciate those of you who are going over this with me. Like I said, it's an interesting topic becuase people get so wound up, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. Thank you Admin for allowing this thread to happen, and continue, and thanks for noone gettinsg warnings when they got a little worked up, and managed to keep it from exploding is a foolish post. I am going to get some work done.

S~

translation:
I don't have the PMs I told you about, you caught me in a lie. I don't want you "schooling" me any more. I already look like a fool and you'll just make it worse.
end translation.

I can live with that. As I mentioned before, you're not the first to tuck tail and run run run away and doubtless you won't be the last.

Way to go there bucko.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I bring it here because this is the place that it matters themost.

Or maybe because 6 months ago when you "brought it" to your own forum, so many people were disgusted by your ideas that you wanted to try and find acceptance somewhere else?

I am am pointing out that we could be hurting ourselves by what we are doing, and offered what I do (and what others have done or do, and don't like to talk about) as a solution.

I'd like to point out something else that could be hurting ourselves ... indifference. Lack of compassion for life. Valuation over compassion. I'd like to offer this as a solution ... the faster we get rid of breeders that treat these precious animals as mere widgets, the better off we, this hobby, and this business will be. My suggestion is about as equally practical as your and with mine, no animals have to die.

In the case of carpet pythons this isn't true. The reason is, unlike ball Pythons ...

But you said this in your first post ...

but this arguement can be made for Normal Balls as well

You're flailing again.

they have to end up someplace

And I would suggest that if you are not willing to find them good, responsible homes ... then you shouldn't be breeding.

You want to justify killing of snakes by claiming that you're saving them from a miserable life, but you are the reason they have a life in the first place ... so if you're seriously that concerned about it, don't breed. (I think this sentiment was expressed time and time again on the thread in your forum that you keep talking about ... did you expect a different result elsewhere?)

Besides, it a useless death, which I don't feel really good about.

All death is useless. In the case of farm product or animal feeders, some death is necessary, but I'd hope most would never consider it "meaningful". One of the huge problems that I see here is that you acquired animals to feed your "cull" to in order to justify killing snakes. That's more than a little disturbing when you really think about it.

So is selling 100 of them at once on the cheap to get rid of them.

Why do you keep assuming that that is how most animals are sold? Maybe in your jaded world of living creatures being on par with hand held electronics, but there is a gigantic segment of the herp community that actually cares about each and every animal that they produce. I'm sorry that you've been around for such a "LONG TIME" that you've lost touch with that and only see the herp community through the ugly glasses of volume and profit. That may be the way for some, but certainly not all, and I believe not most.

It does exactly the same thing, and I actually make more money, not less.

Right. Money. Yup.

Blessings,

-adam

[olstyn]

Or maybe because 6 months ago when you "brought it" to your own forum, so many people were disgusted by your ideas that you wanted to try and find acceptance somewhere else?

Just to clarify this point (I'm NOT on ShawnC's side), I tend to lurk his forum, as I have an interest in getting a carpet in the future, but don't have one yet, and there is lots of good discussion there. The most recent time he brought this topic up over there was actually yesterday.

(Hopefully I'm not violating the rules by linking to it, and if I am, admins, please edit my post to delete the link - I just wanted to provide a timestamped reference.)

[rabernet]

My stance is that I take issue with your position that your "culled" animals are somehow better off than the pet homes that I find for my normal males. Not the fact that you feed them off, but that you are so rigid in your belief that they are better served being fed off.

You have provided no evidence that they would be better off dead than adopted out.

[JLC]

(Hopefully I'm not violating the rules by linking to it, and if I am, admins, please edit my post to delete the link - I just wanted to provide a timestamped reference.)

Hey...just to clarify something for folks unfamiliar with our site...and for Shawn...

Links to outside sites are FINE so long as they are given to further a specific discussion or show something that is not available here at BP.net. We're pretty generous with allowing links to other sites and not real picky.

So, Shawn...if you say, "I could prove that, but I'd have to link to something and I'm not sure I'm allowed".....so long as it's not an adult-oriented site...link away. Also, the site you own is no mystery and linking to it would not be against our TOS, so long as it's not done for the purpose of recruiting or allowing a forum-war to erupt.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Just to clarify this point (I'm NOT on ShawnC's side), I tend to lurk his forum, as I have an interest in getting a carpet in the future, but don't have one yet, and there is lots of good discussion there. The most recent time he brought this topic up over there was actually yesterday.

(Hopefully I'm not violating the rules by linking to it, and if I am, admins, please edit my post to delete the link - I just wanted to provide a timestamped reference.)

I'm aware and I'm sure that there are probably many threads over there that might talk about killing healthy animals in order to "save them from a fate worse than death" or "save the hobby by reducing out footprint" or whatever the line of the day is ... I think my point was more that this isn't a fresh discussion that the OP just decided to "bring to the place that matters" as he claims ... he's been weaving this web for a long time and after 6 months of trying to sell it on his own forum (and failing miserably) he's decided to try and validate his actions by attempting to martyr himself in front a whole new group of people.

Blessings,

-adam