» Site Navigation
2 members and 683 guests
Most users ever online was 47,180, 07-16-2025 at 05:30 PM.
» Today's Birthdays
» Stats
Members: 75,910
Threads: 249,114
Posts: 2,572,185
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
Welcome to our newest member, coda
|
-
Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
I'd make the argument that a properly executed naturalistic enclosure (without predators and parasites - duh) is superior to the ubiquitous tub.
Please define in detail what a "properly executed naturalistic enclosure" is.
I am not trying to stir the pot, I am trying to help everyone define this extremely long and very poorly fought argument. (despite my two troll-ish posts)
-
Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ_Burton
None of them are great to be honest, but better than an empty tub.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaorte
Maybe in your opinion a naturalistic enclosure is not expensive or hard to maintain, but in my opinion, it is. Cage furniture is not especially cheap (unless there is some reptile supply dollar store I don't know about?) and neither are nice display tanks, lights, and heating equipment.
As for maintenance, sure you can spot clean but you should also be doing a full clean every month or two. A full clean of 20+ enclosures would take me days by myself. I can clean out 20+ tubs and my rat colonies in a few hours.
If you want to provide your snakes with an "enriching" environment, that is totally cool. Me personally, I choose to give them a simple environment . Neither of us can confirm that the naturalistic environment actually gives the snake any sort of benefit. I'll keep doing what I do, and you keep doing what you do. I actually really like your naturalistic enclosures and I'd like to see more of them, or some info on what went into them and how you set it up.
Rather than sitting here and arguing about who is right and who is wrong, how about we share our knowledge? Your opinion isn't going to sway the majority, so why sit around and fight about it? :)
No ones fighting, well i'm not it's just a discussion :)
I do a full clean of my enclosures every month. Throw out all the substrate and replace it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by satomi325
I only keep royals so I'm only referring to them.
As for rack vs naturalistic cage. While I can't answer for everyone, I'll answer for myself. I mentioned in a previous post that I chose racks because the snakes seem to do equally well in a rack compared to other enclosures. Maybe even better in some instances?
Maintaining a newspaper tub requires more frequent cleaning than one using organic substrate. When a snake soils their newspaper, you have to change it out entirely. I have to change newspaper once or twice a week for each of my snakes. Sometimes even more. I've used aspen before and that was easier to maintain. At least it was for me. Spot cleaning is easy to pick up on the spot and dumping bedding once a month. That was less work for me than newspaper. But both aren't difficult. I was just pointing out that paper needs more frequent maintenance. I'm a full time university student so money isn't growing on trees for me. I get newspaper for free from school so that helps a lot with costs. I also have limited (temporary) space so full blown display enclosures aren't logical right now.
But when I get my own house and have a steady income, I would eventually like to try a naturalistic enclosure for 2 or 3 of my more established, more confident royals. I don't think the rest would tolerate the change very well.
But I would definitely do a nice natural set up for other less sensitive species for sure.
From what I've seen from most other members here, they do the same with their non ball python animals.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Fair enough! I'm also a student.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
I don't buy it. When given the opportunity, the army of geniuses who think that there is only one way to skin a cat rail against people who keep two snakes in one enclosure, use overheat heat emitters, use glass tanks, use pine bedding, etc. etc. Where's the 14 page manifesto debating that junk science point buy point?
Yep, Crotalids is coming on strong and probably won't get many "Thank Yous" when he posts a picture of himself in the bathroom mirror in one of the two leg-humping threads. Hopefully, he can live with that shame.
Frankly, as someone who writes rebuttals to all the pots that think tupperware is the only right way to keep a snake, belly heat is the only way to heat, that two snakes can't ever be cohabitated and that pine bedding is deadly, think that those pots need to stop calling out the one black kettle who is guilty of doing the same thing they do in day in and day out.
I have seen naturalistic set ups for many species of snakes - yes, even one where the keeper used a cermaic pot wrapped in papier mache to simulate a termite mount. I have seen snakes thrive in them. Are they harder to clean? Yes and no. Are they easier on the keeper? No, but as has been pointed out in the cohabbing thread, doing things for the convenience of the keeper is EVIL and shame on the poor idiot who dare to take a short cut for his, not the snake's, benefit.
Are they beneficial to the snake? That's the $64 question.......maybe, maybe not.
I have seen one of the finest practitioners in the art of keeping snakes keep his large colubrids in completely natural set ups, replete with live plants and small trees. I have seen how those animals interact with their environments.
I have seen the same species kept in rubbermaid and iris tubs and I have first hand heard people who keep them so argue that what's the point of a larger space when all they do is use their hide?
Well, given the space, these snakes look for food, utilize several thermoregulation zones, bury themselves in leaf litter, poke around in hollow logs and climb branches. The use their hides less and use their environment more.
When they aren't robotically stuffed with a fat rodent every week like clockwork, and instead have to look in their environments for different items in different places at differing time spans, they will actively "hunt". I'd make the argument that a properly executed naturalistic enclosure (without predators and parasites - duh) is superior to the ubiquitous tub.
Drop the hive mentality, drones. If Crotalids is giving you a dose of holier-than-thou-judgment, make him come correct. But a pox on you filthy hypocrites that are cheesed at him for taking a page from your effed up intolerance playbooks. Deal with the fact that the tub is a serviceable tool, a perfectly acceptable method of keeping SOME species of snakes, but that a properly done naturalistic environment is probably the ideal.
Didn't realise people actually care about thanks on a forum...They must live a boring life if they do.
A friend of mine keeps his rattlesnakes in tubs with nothing but a hide in there and bowl, and he's always said that his rattlesnakes are lazy. I'm not surprised..If you came and watched mine for a day or so, they are active, even after feeding. They regularly explore their surroundings, and i actually like to remove certain hides every now and then, and replace them with a different one. The effect is there to see, as pretty soon the snakes are out and about exploring their new surroundings.
Another thing that i can do with the snakes that don't hold onto their food, is after they've envenomated the prey, is to actually hide it. Forcing them to track it down, a lot of venomous keepers let the snake strike and leave it in front of them. I know non venomous keepers to do this, by making something they can hide food in and leave it in the viv at feeding time and let the snake pick up the scent and hunt down the prey item.
-
Skip;
Honest question, as I am wondering about conflicting things I've read.
I thought it was generally not a good idea to put much vertical climbing area in for bps. As being thick bodied and generally clumsy with climbing they could injure themselves (falling). Is this not the case? I would add some climbing to my display tanks if that is true. Thanks for any information!
-
Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion
By the way, since my post was last, if I'm the "buddy": I don't come to forums to make friends or fit in, I come to find factual, evidentiary, truthful, realistic, and otherwise TRUE information. When older or more experienced herpers, etc, tell the novices that racks are the only way to do something, tanks are crappy enclosures, and what not, it pisses me off. Because that's an opinion, not a fact. I stated from the beginning that this was all basically my opinion with some factual evidence too. But don't tell novices they have to keep their snakes in racks or they won't eat, or they will stress out, etc etc etc, and expect people not to react slightly emotionally driven. If you want to make friends, kiss all the tushie you want by sugar coating your own misguided opinions,fine whatever, but I won't be doing so. I'm here to learn, not form a comradery with the cliques that have formed amongst you all. Do YOU know how YOU sound? What's bollocks is that some people are too lazy to get off their rear and mist their snakes, monitor their temps, and allow their snakes room to have some stimulation and freedom because they are selfish 9/10 times. THAT is bollocks. If you can't be bothered with giving your snakes decent enclosures, or misting, buying an auto-mister, or monitoring temps, etc, don't bother AT ALL. I think you fail to see the attitude you just displayed in your comments. And now after just wanting to offer how I do things, why, and my personal opinion on the subject, you've brought out the beastial side in me. Thanks.
I'm at work skimming through this - may I please ask that you add paragraph breaks to your posts? :please:
I gave up on reading the first one and most of this one, because it was difficult to follow with one long block of streaming thought.
Your message may be lost in the method that you choose to deliver it.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
I'm at work skimming through this - may I please ask that you add paragraph breaks to your posts? :please:
I gave up on reading the first one and most of this one, because it was difficult to follow with one long block of streaming thought.
Your message may be lost in the method that you choose to deliver it.
Agreed. I gave up on it too.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
-
Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
True. But like i stated earlier, Royals may not be active, but that's nothing compared to my Gaboons. Royals may also stress, also nothing compared to rhinoceros and nasicornis.
I'm on about their venom extraction facility. It's got nothing to do with being a 'baller', substrate isn't exactly expensive.
Haha! Well i'm definitely one of the people who doesn't take notice of someones opinion after all it's only words, what damage can words do? none. I've had people be racist to me before, i didn't get offended, i talked to them about it instead, to try and and make them see why it's wrong. Being offended doesn't solve anything.
:)
Last note: you talk about natural, realistically going to grab dirt and grass from where caught is natural not only that, the best substrate as well. So that natural talk should just be cut out. I for one ain't going to grab dirt n grass from Africa. Hey but I'll stoop to ur level and just say; at least I can sex my animals and hold them out for u to look at lol
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Sure, i think my way of keeping is right - that's my opinion. I'm not saying it's a fact.
Of course, hence why i said dependent on species, as i imagine most of you keep more than just Royal's.:gj:
- - - Updated - - -
Maybe you can post pictures of your racking set ups, and i will be able to see whether it's too small or not...
Many of you have stated that you don't do a naturalistic set up because of the time to maintain them, and the cost involved. Neither which is true, as they don't take long to maintain, and the cost is next to nothing. Obviously when they're youngsters they need to be fed on a more frequent basis in case they do go on a hunger strike. But adults can go a very long time without food, people just panic far too much.
Proper discourse and debate constitutes that either you hold an opinion in a matter or factually you are correct. There is no middle ground. I'm honestly not sure that the words you're using mean what you think they mean.
Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)
-
As much as I love reading a good argument, I think I'm just going to say this.
My mother doesn't really seem to understand why I keep Will in a tub. It's just really difficult for people who aren't in the hobby, or who aren't familiar with BPs to understand that this isn't a form of abuse or neglect. Will is strong, curious, healthy, and he's never refused a meal, so I figure that he's alright.
The main reason I keep him in a tub is ease of cleaning. I know it's selfish, but I just can't lift my large, 55 gallon tanks up off of the ground, tote them to the back door, clean them in the driveway (they won't fit in the bath), and haul them back inside. I'm small, and doing things like this has given me hernias in the past.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieh
Proper discourse and debate constitutes that either you hold an opinion in a matter or factually you are correct. There is no middle ground. I'm honestly not sure that the words you're using mean what you think they mean.
Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)
You obviously cannot read properly then, as I said I think my way is right and that's my opinion. So in fact I do have an opinion, for a 'proper' debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPythons
Last note: you talk about natural, realistically going to grab dirt and grass from where caught is natural not only that, the best substrate as well. So that natural talk should just be cut out. I for one ain't going to grab dirt n grass from Africa. Hey but I'll stoop to ur level and just say; at least I can sex my animals and hold them out for u to look at lol
You're just trying to take it to the extreme.
And what's your point about you can sex your animals and hold them out for me to look at? I know all the sexes of my snakes, and I can easily take them out. Some of those pictures taken on my other thread are outside the enclosure.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Are you serious? Known to not have a potent venom?
The first link that you posted states this about B.Nasicornis "VERY TOXIC BY INTRAVENOUS AND INTRAMUSCULAR ROUTES". Fortunately not much is known about Bitis N. or B. G. because not very many people have been bitten by them, due to their calm and lazy nature. They usually only bite when stepped on or harassed. Most of their data is from mice and monkeys.
Worlds most venomous snakes
To say that a Bitis N's venom is not potent is ignorant. Sure its not as potent as say a Taipan, but it is far from being non fatal. They are more fatal than many venomous snakes, such as the Agkistrodon contortrix, or Crotalus atrox which both have a low toxicity level. The B.N. is actually in the middle, but the amount of venom is indeed also a factor, as they do inject far more than any other snake.
"Bites are relatively rare, due to their docile nature and because their range is mainly limited to rainforest areas. Due to their sluggishness and unwillingness to move even when approached, people are often bitten after they accidentally step on them, but even then in some cases they may not bite. However, when a bite does occur, it should always be considered a serious medical emergency. Even an average bite from an average-sized specimen is potentially fatal. Antivenin should be administered as soon as possible to save the victim's life if not the affected limb."
A study by Marsh and Whaler was done and found that the equivalent to 0.06 ml of venom, or 1/50 to 1/1000 of what can be obtained in a single milking. 35 mg (1/30 of the average venom yield) would be enough to kill a man of 150lbs.
As far as pictures, I wish that we did still have pictures of our Rhino's. They were very beautiful. Unfortunately that was years and a few computers ago and we no longer have any of them.
|
