Jen Harrison Split from Big Daddy's Wholesale Thread

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Originally Posted by babygerl3094

granted, but wouldnt it still be the same where theres X people who got to see the proof but no one else... and that will leave everyone else where we still are... he said she said game :weirdface

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If you want to read this email its in the thread over at fauna ;).It was copied and pasted and will be there forever now.

tasha sent me the email that she posted here and the one she sent him but without headers or footers and did not send the second set of emails.

The first pair as they are, are worthless, which I let her know.

Someone with nothing to hide would most likely not be so secretive.

Makes me wonder.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

tasha sent me the email that she posted here and the one she sent him but without headers or footers and did not send the second set of emails.

The first pair as they are, are worthless, which I let her know.

Someone with nothing to hide would most likely not be so secretive.

Makes me wonder.

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I forwarded the exact email that I received from Dr. Jacobsen which included my original email to him in his response - I know nothing of headers and footers but if they where there from the original emails - I would assume they would be there from the forwarded ones as well - I have since sent Wes screen shots of the emails - if someone wants to walk me through some special way I am supposed to send these - then be my guest - I have nothing to hide. I have said that I will only share the complete emails with someone I trust - and Wes is not that person - I have obliged by sending him only what has been previously published as well as my original email - just to show that I did not railroad Jen in any way as he seems to think I did.

Does this mean that Jen was following what the vet said or was not following what the vet said?

According to Jen, she was.

According to Tosha (with the email she posted) she wasn't.

This is getting screwy!

Think I have the email header thing figured out and forwarded to Wes.

According to Dr. Jacobsen - she is not following his advice. She may be claiming to follow the advice of either Dr. Gordon - who didn't really know what was going on and referred her to Dr. Jacobsen and is now pretty much a sample collector - or the other Vet/second victim - who doesn't really know what's going on as well and is pretty much relying on Jen for advice. Dr. Jacobsen is the specialist - the one with the knowledge the one doing the research - the one that is telling her what she doesn't want to hear so she is ignoring him.

I have too much of a headache to read all of this. In response to belvis -- my response to you came before all of this really came down on this forum. It was after that PM that I became fully aware of everything and decided to withdraw all potential sales discussions. Look at the dates and times on those PM's.

I will repeat what I posted on the BOI:

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Keep in mind that the info I get from Dr. Jacobsen has been coming to me through Dr. Gordon. He has never spoken to me directly or sent me any kind of paperwork -- which has been the big problem. The last thing he said was that the test for OPMV was negative -- but then in information from Dr. Brodnik, it came out that it can take up to 8 weeks for antibodies to develop, therefore nullifying any test results we got because the sample females had only been sick for 3 weeks -- therefore may not have developed antibodies at all -- and hence the negative result.

No one has purchased anything from me. The babies were reserved by 3 people, which I have since cancelled.

Dr. Gordon imported and recommended the vaccine -- as it was proven to stop OPMV in multiple cases in Europe, and thus was sent to me by a German vet who had experience with it working in this manner first hand. If you Google it, you will read it for yourself.

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In case you haven't noticed, almost every med we use on ball pythons isn't labeled for reptiles -- it is labeled for birds, cats, dogs, cattle, pigs, etc. Vets are the ones that know when and how they can be used for non-listed animals. Hence the use of Colombovac in reptiles. In my research of OPMV, I printed off multiple cases in the UK, Germany, and Australia where collections were hit by the virus and when all remaining animals were vaccinated with 0.2cc of Colombovac regardless of weight, the infection stopped cold and did not continue -- and they never had a problem after that; they are all keeping and breeding successfully years later, with no recurrances of illness. Including one very dear friend of Dan and Colette Sutherland -- who experienced it first hand as well as colleagues of hers, and she is the one who put us in touch with her vet to get the vaccine. I brought everything I printed to Dr. Gordon, who made the call to order it and use it. You do have to remember that I am working with 3 different vets -- not every single thing went through all 3 of them. Especially considering that Dr. Jacobsen never responded to e-mails, never called me, never mailed me anything, and barely responded to Dr. Gordon when pressed for information. When we submitted our samples in January, we were told we'd have results in 2 weeks. It has now been months, and we're still not getting as much info as we need.

When I got the clearance that my babies were just fine and my animals would still be breedable, it came from Dr. Gordon and Dr. Brodnik. As mentioned, Dr. Jacobsen never responds to anything. I only get info from him through Dr. Gordon, which is why I believed it was sound info.

As previously mentioned, no animals have left my collection since September of last year. I have not recieved anything donated by anyone AT ALL. You can verify this with those that offered to do so. The only new animals to have come in are animals that I purchased after being told it was just fine to do so by 2 different vets. They are in a separate room from my established collection -- which pretty much doesn't matter at this point any more. Am I selling my babies? No. Am I breeding any more? Not right now. Do I know what I'm going to do? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

the one that is telling her what she doesn't want to hear so she is ignoring him.

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Actually no, he hasn't told me squat. He has not responded to any phone calls or e-mails from either myself or Dr. Gordon. The only time he advised against the vaccine was way back in the very beginning when I first contacted him in approximately November. That was before he had ever recieved any samples from us or had heard a single word about this case. That is why Dr. Gordon made the call that he did later, after doing his own research on OPMV.

This is an Australian forum discussing OPMV -- I have copied and pasted a few posts that are related to what I have been saying:

( http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/g...n-44092/page-3 )

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HerpDoc
Regular Member Join Date: Dec-06
Location: Melbourne
Age: 27
Posts: 29

Biopsies on live animals may be useful but hard to achieve. Best area is lung tissue and this is technically difficult in snakes and obviously would result in a fair amount of trauma. Other issues with biopsy are that the virus maybe atypical in its behaviour, ie living in other tissue and may be missed by biopsy. In the United States can be diagnosed anti-mortem with a haemagglutintaion inhibition test that looks for antibodies. This however is not an indication of active infection but only means expose to the virus has occurred and a rise in antibody titre is required for diagnosis of active infection. Snakes take about 8 weeks to seroconvert so if they are tested during this time they may be falsely identified as negative.
As far as transmission is concerned the main mode is considered to be airbone with contaminated utensils and cage furniture also playing a significant role so the key to prevention is HYGIENE. Cant stress this enough, this also includes good quarantine protocols and controlling ectoparasites.

__________________
Dr Franciscus Scheelings BVSc
Veterinary Resident Healesville Sanctuary
Special Interest Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery

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The bolded sentence is exactly why the negative test result from Dr. Jacobsen needs to be thrown out and another test done on new samples from the two snakes that were sick longer and survived. The females used were only sick for 3 weeks therefore most likely had no antibody development, thus the negative result.

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adbacus
Regular Member Join Date: Jul-06
Location: Albury
Age: 31
Posts: 850

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Originally Posted by xycom
Have any cases been found in wild specimens?
Would a good herp vet be able to organise tests on suspected animals?

1. Depending on who you talk to, the theorists out there believe that the disease originiated in Australia. I prefer to believe in conventional thinking that it was an introduced disease. I have not seen any papers or documents out there that suggest that it has managed to get out in the wild. There have been no studies I know of out there to suggest that it is out there. However, there has been a huge decline in the presence of herps and Australian Native Flora and fauna within the last 30 odd years.

2. Definitive tests on animals at this point in time involve in killing the animal. The only reliable method I have been told of diagnosis is through tissue histology. I have suggested to a few people that modified ELISA (Enzyme Linked Immuno Sorbed Assay) or PCR (polymerase Chain Reaction) tests may be beneficial and would not necessarily kill the animal. The issue with this is that the tests require specific keyed DNA for the causative agents which cause IBD and OPMV. The dna viral strands themselves require to be isolated. At this point, the actual identification of key strands themselves are not 100% and more research needs to be done.

I am still waiting for anyone who might be able to give more information on the use of Colombovac and it's efficacy and viability as it is an APMV (Avian Paramyxovirus) Vaccine.

__________________
Waiting here. Sitting in the Dark, Waiting for the Lynch Mobs and Witch Hunters.

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Considering that reptiles and birds are very closely related, this is why people chose to try the vaccine in reptile OPMV cases in Europe.

This is a quote from another related website, where we got much of our info from:

( http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV17.htm )

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A hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) assay has been developed to measure antibody produced against OPMV (Jacobson et al., 1981), however in experiments, some snakes produced no antibodies some weeks after infection and others actually died before any antibodies appeared. Hence a negative HI assay cannot be taken to exclude the possibility an OPMV infection. It appears that in some snakes OPMV antibodies form about 8 weeks after infection.

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This is the article about the successful use of Colombovac in stopping OPMV -- I e-mailed John months ago when we first started suspecting this virus, and he confirmed that his collection is still doing well and that he has not had an outbreak since:

( http://sidewinder78.tripod.com/TheSi...anch/id31.html )

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VIRUS INFECTION IN MY SNAKE COLLECTION
John Bakker

In October 1988 I bought a number of young snakes from a breeder at a snake show. Those were the only snakes I bought that day, other than that I inspected snakes for several people who wanted to buy them. I also sexed a few snakes by means of probing. After I got home I housed the young snakes separately in small boxes. All went well the first few months. The snakes ate well and grew rapidly, but early February 1989 I found a snake (Elaphe Helena) dead that I have had for a number of years.
In a period of about twelve hours this snake lost a lot of weight en was severely dehydrated. In the next two days four more snakes died. According to the autopsy report all the snakes died of pneumonia (a lot of mucus in the lungs). All the snakes were treated as a precautionary measure, but after a few days I found six snakes dead and six more the day after that. All the snakes that died were good eaters, were healthy but all died within a twelve hour period. They all lost a lot of weight all were dehydrated. All the snakes showed a peculiar behavior before they died. They appeared to be very edgy and aggressive and moved very fast within their enclosures. I took a snake to an animal hospital in Utrecht where Marja Kik examined it and a PARAMIXOS virus was found in the snakes brain. This virus is similar to the virus found in pigeons and chickens. I was advised to keep all my snakes in separate enclosures and to disinfect all materials, used for treatment, and myself with FORMALINE 4% after every visit to my snake room. Now all I could do was wait. According to the hospital there was no known treatment or medicine. Professor Zwart was in the U.S.A at this time attending a congress about this virus, so I could not consult with him about a possible treatment. In the next two weeks a large number of snakes died so I decided to consult Walter Getreuer of SERPO-ZOO in Delft. I then decided to inject the remainder of my snakes with COLOMBOVAC, 0.2 cc for each snake despite its size and weight. This medicine has been used by my father in the pigeon sport as a preventive treatment for young pigeons for many years. The price of one injection at that time was about HFL 1,35. After a week all my snakes looked and behaved normal and not a single snake died. In total I had lost 40 snakes to this virus. By September 1989 all my snakes were in perfect condition. To this day I still dont know who was responsible for bringing infected snakes to the show. I later heard that a few other snake keepers were hit by this virus. Snakes most perceptive to this virus are Lampropeltis, Boa, Python, Vipera, Crotalus and Asian Elaphe species. This virus hardly ever infects North American Elaphe species. I have no scientific proof that my treatment cured the snakes, but you dont have much choice when all your snakes are dying on you. Youll try anything to save your snakes and in my case it seemed to have worked. In the years after this period I have been approached by a number of snake keepers with the same problem (also through SERPO-ZOO). I advised them all to treat their snakes with COLOMBOVAC and I have had nothing but positive response. Even now in 2001 I have been asked to advise on a number of cases. Because new cases keep popping up in the literature (especially in the USA) about this virus in rattlesnake species, keeping this treatment in mind may be a good thing.

John Bakker

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So this is the first you've heard from Dr. Jacobson since you sent him the samples? Does it change your mind at all given what he said about this unknown virus and what he thinks should be done with the animals? Have you contacted him since this thread?

Jen - if you have no contact with the Dr. then stop quoting him and his works and pretending like he's your new best friend. Its NOT OPMV. Stop pretending like you know what you are doing and what you are talking about because you don't! You are once again throwing out a bunch of lies and misinformation to suit your agenda - JUST STOP.