Could BPs survive in FL?

If there was a good amount of males and females in FL, do you think they could survive in FL just like the Burmese?

I'm sure they could. I don't see people getting rid of them though, as they do not get large like others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neal

I'm sure they could. I don't see people getting rid of them though, as they do not get large like others.

---

Ya, that's true. I bet some people would throw them out there though, like if they couldn't care for it or didn't feel like caring for it anymore. I don't see how that would work though, BPs are simple to take care of and awesome snakes :]. Though, I find them the hardest to care for out of my collection since my collection mostly consists of colubrids. I don't find my Dumeril's boa hard to care for one bit, they are actually really easy besides the finicky eating part but I got passed that lol.

I'm sure somebody probably does that. People often jump into something before they are actually ready for it. Most snakes are easy to care for, just some require more attention then others, and others require more awareness.

I live in florida, food and predators aside. Im sure my BPs would live much better outside than in their tubs. Thats my opinion anyways. :)

As long as they have a cool side of 80*-84*, a warm side of 90*-94*, humidity at 50%-60% normally and 60%-70% during shed, I don't see why not. Maybe the area is too big though, so make sure there are plenty of tight fitting hides around.

Later, Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Ya, that's true. I bet some people would throw them out there though, like if they couldn't care for it or didn't feel like caring for it anymore. I don't see how that would work though, BPs are simple to take care of and awesome snakes :]. Though, I find them the hardest to care for out of my collection since my collection mostly consists of colubrids. I don't find my Dumeril's boa hard to care for one bit, they are actually really easy besides the finicky eating part but I got passed that lol.

---

You bet they would be able to live in florida. They would probably thrive just like the burms. But I think ball pythons will be much easier to care for than a Dumerils though, your just overwhelmed by such an awesome snake its hard to take care of:)(did not make sense, but hey am I wrong?)

Florida's climate is more humid and tropical then the arid savanna that they're from in Africa. They're also from the equator and aren't used to the wide fluctuations in temperature that you can have in Florida. It might be possible, but I kind of doubt it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by guambomb832

You bet they would be able to live in florida. They would probably thrive just like the burms. But I think ball pythons will be much easier to care for than a Dumerils though, your just overwhelmed by such an awesome snake its hard to take care of:)(did not make sense, but hey am I wrong?)

---

Well, my Dumeril's is still small and as long as my BP (2 ft. 9 in.) but I think once she reaches her maximum length she'll be the hardest to care for, but I'm not too sure on that since she will be my first largest snake I've owned (7-8 ft.) so not really sure how simple or hard it will be to take care of her when she gets to her maximum length.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Well, my Dumeril's is still small and as long as my BP (2 ft. 9 in.) but I think once she reaches her maximum length she'll be the hardest to care for, but I'm not too sure on that since she will be my first largest snake I've owned (7-8 ft.) so not really sure how simple or hard it will be to take care of her when she gets to her maximum length.

---

I wish I could get a large snake. I will either have to wait till I am out on my own, or lots of pleading with my mom. But jungle carpets are slender so they don't look there actual size.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by guambomb832

I wish I could get a large snake. I will either have to wait till I am out on my own, or lots of pleading with my mom. But jungle carpets are slender so they don't look there actual size.

---

I was goin to get a JCP, but i decided not to. Didn't feel like putting up with getting bit lol. Though, I'm glad I have the snake I have right now. All are nice and great eaters (don't know about the Hog since he is new and he has not had his first meal with me yet). I like to clean and care for my snakes, so the Dumeril's might not be a problem when she's her full grown length and size. I don't mind cleaning up after my snakes either, I find it very simple.

I...actually don't think so. At least not healthily. I've got a rescue snake who was found in someone's yard I think a little over a year ago; I acquired her shortly (about two weeks) thereafter. She was an adult when I recieved her. She was missing the tip of her tail, had a number of scratches, cuts, patches of missing scales, a big cut down the center of her head (which took MONTHS to heal), stuck sheds, massive areas with missing pigments, old scars, and while she was the same length as my then 2100g adult female, she was visibly underweight with her backbone standing out and a very "triangle" shape to her. I estimate she weighed 1400g at the most.

Even now a year later she still has scars, and the patches of missing pigmentation still haven't gone away. She only weighs 1960g, and I'd like her to be closer to 2200g. So, no, I don't think that balls are suited to living in Florida. Not that they cannot, but I seriously don't think that they would establish such a large and successful breeding population. At least not as successful as burmese pythons, in any case.

Even if people were to release their pet balls into the Florida environment, the chances of them surviving are very low. They have lived in captivity all their lives and are not ready for possible predators and finding food.

The Burmese population in Florida, unlike popular belief, was established because a large group of BABY snakes got loose during hurricane Andrew. Not because of people releasing their pets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

Even if people were to release their pet balls into the Florida environment, the chances of them surviving are very low. They have lived in captivity all their lives and are not ready for possible predators and finding food.

The Burmese population in Florida, unlike popular belief, was established because a large group of BABY snakes got loose during hurricane Andrew. Not because of people releasing their pets.

---

And you can back this up, how?

Later, Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

And you can back this up, how?

Later, Matt

---

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/fil...compressed.pdf
http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/Reed_review.pdf
http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/fil...penLTR_001.pdf
This is enough to convince me.

The evidence points toward hurricane Andrew. That is when the spike of burmese pythons in the glades went up dramatically.

im going to have to agree with kaorte on this. The Barkers are too educated in the snake game to come with a bunch of BS. To say that people dont let their burms loose would be a stupid statement but to establish a population that size would take help from other factors i.e. warehouses, homes, and such being destroyed and the snakes escaping in mass numbers. It makes sense to me anyways. Im pretty sure there is a 45 page thread on this site in the regulations section or on a different site, probably both with the ones that know discussing this subject due to the bill that is trying to be passed.

I don't think they would... maybe in the very south, but not anywhere else. Here in jacksonville, we still have hard freezes every year. (for you northerners that haven't heard that term before, It is when temperatures drop below freezing for several hours...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/fil...compressed.pdf
http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/Reed_review.pdf
http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/fil...penLTR_001.pdf
This is enough to convince me.

The evidence points toward hurricane Andrew. That is when the spike of burmese pythons in the glades went up dramatically.

---

Not to say much, but the Barkers are herpetoculturists, not herpetologists. Yes, Dave Barker has a degree in biology, but he is NOT a scientist.

I do not read papers like that.

Later, Matt

Hmm I dont think a paper saying you went to this school and graduated from here and there surpases the knowledge of 2 individuals that have dedicated their lives to the knowledge of these creatures... but thats just my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Not to say much, but the Barkers are herpetoculturists, not herpetologists. Yes, Dave Barker has a degree in biology, but he is NOT a scientist.

I do not read papers like that.

Later, Matt

---

You should read them anyway, they are really interesting and informative. They don't use knowledge needed from a degree in herpetology. They use real information that is out there for all of us to use. They just use that information and form a really great opinion that makes a lot of sense. It convinced me!

i think its pretty sad that there is ppl all ages breeding reptiles yet no professionals in the DNR nor on the everglades project seem to have enough cents to buy a hamburger at whitecastle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danounet

Hmm I dont think a paper saying you went to this school and graduated from here and there surpases the knowledge of 2 individuals that have dedicated their lives to the knowledge of these creatures... but thats just my opinion.

---

Dedicated their lives to breeding these animals in captivity.

You're not actually saying Dave and Tracy Barker know more about the natural history of these Python than a scientist actually studying them in the wild, right?

I wonder why the papers were published through the Chicago Herp Society. :rofl:

Later, Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Dedicated their lives to breeding these animals in captivity.

You're not actually saying Dave and Tracy Barker know more about the natural history of these Python than a scientist actually studying them in the wild, right?

I wonder why the papers were published through the Chicago Herp Society. :rofl:

Later, Matt

---

Wow.......:weirdface

most likey there are some i nthe wild doing just fine. They are just on the news like their bigger family members, since they not eating gaters and such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Yes, Dave Barker has a degree in biology, but he is NOT a scientist.

Later, Matt

---

Just for the uneducated please fill us in on the difference in a a mulit degree biologist, who both worked as zookeepers, field biologists, researchers, and graduate students. During that time they were obsessive collectors and keepers of snakes, as well as of other reptiles and amphibians, and both individuals maintained excessively large private collections of animals. Each of these avid herpetologists has accumulated in excess of 10,000 snake-years of experience. (One “snake-year” of experience equals the full-time maintenance of one snake for a period of one year.) and a scientist.

Quote:

---

Not to say much, but the Barkers are herpetoculturists, not herpetologists. Yes, Dave Barker has a degree in biology,
Later, Matt

---

P.S Just in case you didn't know Herpetologist are Biologist that specialize in the study of reptiles. so unless you've seen Dave or Tracy's "Minor" for all of their many degrees I'd hold off saying what they are and aren't just yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Just for the uneducated please fill us in on the difference in a a mulit degree biologist, who both worked as zookeepers, field biologists, researchers, and graduate students. During that time they were obsessive collectors and keepers of snakes, as well as of other reptiles and amphibians, and both individuals maintained excessively large private collections of animals. Each of these avid herpetologists has accumulated in excess of 10,000 snake-years of experience. (One “snake-year” of experience equals the full-time maintenance of one snake for a period of one year.) and a scientist.



P.S Just in case you didn't know Herpetologist are Biologist that specialize in the study of reptiles. so unless you've seen Dave or Tracy's "Minor" for all of their many degrees I'd hold off saying what they are and aren't just yet.

---

A quote from a herpetologist I somewhat know.

"Dave has an M.S. in Biology, but he is far from the academic that many of you guys are trying to anoint him as being. Dave chose a different path after his M.S.: herpetocultural. Of course he has published a handful of scientific papers since then, but if you knew anything about these papers, they often had many coauthors that did the science portion of the paper. Dave often just provided the field work: tissue samples, specimens, locale records for biogeographic analysis etc. That is not to say that these are not critical aspects of the study, as the study could not have been done without them, but that hardly qualifies Dave as having rigorously applying the scientific method to a problem, cranking out data, analyzing it, and drawing valid conclusions from it...that's where most of those coauthors came in. I was at UTA when much of this was being done.

...

There is a big difference between having lots of experience through gathering a bunch of observations and being able to apply the various techniques of ecology and population biology, through experimentation, to the issue of invasiveness. However, that is precisely what Dave and Tracy have done with their python paper. Have you ever wondered why it was published through the Chicago Herp Bulletin? It would never have been accepted in any of the academic journals...not because it was wrong or because academics have an agenda, but because it had zero science in it! It was a rant based off of their experiences that are almost entirely untested and therefore any potential biases cannot be sorted out of their publication. I'm afraid that many of you that have read their numerous articles on python and other snake husbandry are not being able to separate this kind of work from scientific papers."

Later, Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

A quote from a herpetologist I somewhat know.

"Dave has an M.S. in Biology, but he is far from the academic that many of you guys are trying to anoint him as being. Dave chose a different path after his M.S.: herpetocultural. Of course he has published a handful of scientific papers since then, but if you knew anything about these papers, they often had many coauthors that did the science portion of the paper. Dave often just provided the field work: tissue samples, specimens, locale records for biogeographic analysis etc. That is not to say that these are not critical aspects of the study, as the study could not have been done without them, but that hardly qualifies Dave as having rigorously applying the scientific method to a problem, cranking out data, analyzing it, and drawing valid conclusions from it...that's where most of those coauthors came in. I was at UTA when much of this was being done.

...

There is a big difference between having lots of experience through gathering a bunch of observations and being able to apply the various techniques of ecology and population biology, through experimentation, to the issue of invasiveness. However, that is precisely what Dave and Tracy have done with their python paper. Have you ever wondered why it was published through the Chicago Herp Bulletin? It would never have been accepted in any of the academic journals...not because it was wrong or because academics have an agenda, but because it had zero science in it! It was a rant based off of their experiences that are almost entirely untested and therefore any potential biases cannot be sorted out of their publication. I'm afraid that many of you that have read their numerous articles on python and other snake husbandry are not being able to separate this kind of work from scientific papers."

Later, Matt

---

Please cite your source.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Please cite your source.

---

Kenny Wray, Florida State University.

Later, Matt

Now if we can just get the scientific papers that you are using while stating your case. I only say this because you require others to cite their scientific papers that prove their case.
I would like the opportunity to read both (The Barker's and yours) and come to a solid opinion on the subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waltah!

Now if we can just get the scientific papers that you are using while stating your case. I only say this because you require others to cite their scientific papers that prove their case.
I would like the opportunity to read both (The Barker's and yours) and come to a solid opinion on the subject.

---

*takes deep breath, shakes head, and starts typing*

I don't have any papers... I stated that already - happy?

At least I'm not using biased and unscientific papers, right?!

Later, Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

*takes deep breath, shakes head, and starts typing*

I don't have any papers... I stated that already - happy?

At least I'm not using biased and unscientific papers, right?!

Later, Matt

---

As long as your happy making your decisions like that so be it..

I guess no information is better than info from a person that doesn't meet your standards of what you require to change your mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

*takes deep breath, shakes head, and starts typing*

I don't have any papers... I stated that already - happy?

At least I'm not using biased and unscientific papers, right?!

Later, Matt

---

No you're not. You're not using any research papers apparently. Just checkin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waltah!

No you're not. You're not using any research papers apparently. Just checkin.

---

:weirdface

I know, I'm pretty sure I just said that.

I know the Barkers have done a lot for herpetoculture, and I respect them for that. In fact, my cheynei comes from their line and I'm proud of that.

It's just so painfully obvious that they fight against the ban because they're afraid of not being able to breed their pythons and boas anymore.

Then they start rightfully, but misleadingly, using "graduate biologists" in their intro to their unscientific paper. People start citing this paper as science and use it as a sole source to prove their point.

Later, Matt

Well, I cited it because I agree with them, not because I think it is scientific. The facts they present lead me to agree with what they have written.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

:weirdface

I know, I'm pretty sure I just said that.

I know the Barkers have done a lot for herpetoculture, and I respect them for that. In fact, my cheynei comes from their line and I'm proud of that.

It's just so painfully obvious that they fight against the ban because they're afraid of not being able to breed their pythons and boas anymore.

Then they start rightfully, but misleadingly, using "graduate biologists" in their intro to their unscientific paper. People start citing this paper as science and use it as a sole source to prove their point.

Later, Matt

---

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. The issue is that you critique others for citing this paper as their sole source while not having a single (sole) source for your opinions. This could go round and round all day long, so I guess we can just accept the fact that we won't agree on this and move on.

hows this for facts
bp are not swamp animals
they do not take cold temps at all
they dont take alot of humidity
they dont take too much heat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nixer

hows this for facts
bp are not swamp animals
they do not take cold temps at all
they dont take alot of humidity
they dont take too much heat

---

Lol high five!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nixer

bp are not swamp animals

---

Not all of Florida is swamp.

Quote:

---

they do not take cold temps at all

---

According to some burm breeders, Burms don't take temperatures under 75* (in captivity), and I'm sure balls can deal with that.

Quote:

---

they dont take alot of humidity

---

I doubt this will keep them from reproducing.

Quote:

---

they dont take too much heat

---

Meh, there's plenty of cool places.

Later, Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Not all of Florida is swamp.



According to some burm breeders, Burms don't take temperatures under 75* (in captivity), and I'm sure balls can deal with that.



I doubt this will keep them from reproducing.



Meh, there's plenty of cool places.

Later, Matt

---

1i didnt say all of florida was swamp!
2 burms will go into the water and sit in mud where im sure it will not be too cold, bp cannot do that for extended periods of time at all.

as for your supposed expert i highly doubt he has any first hand knowledge with any python species nor does he have the experience with each species to even give any input that would be remotely close to correct other than spewing something he read from some other book.

this would lead him to lack any knowledge on the habits of individual species or their requirements and even at that the supposed "scientific" study based on a guess on possible climate change is no basis for anything.

oh yes then you have extereme temps which can be over 100 and less than 50 for prolonged periods. ive had bps that got ri from jsut a little bit too much humidity and i also got it from my heattape going out for a day

but what do i know im no biologist im just a guy with real world observations of actual facts!

the earth a little to far from the sun we would freeze a little to close to the sun we would burn..... ball pythons a little to hot not good a little to cold blah blah i think these creatures would survive given the appropiate climates maybe florida does have them, you would just have to find the location ,but to say its not possible that would be ignorant ...:rolleye2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nixer

as for your supposed expert i highly doubt he has any first hand knowledge with any python species nor does he have the experience with each species to even give any input that would be remotely close to correct other than spewing something he read from some other book.

---

The only reason I quoted him was that he had first hand experience with the BARKERS, and all he did was explain how the paper was biased and what Dave Barker has contributed to other research papers.

Quote:

---

oh yes then you have extereme temps which can be over 100 and less than 50 for prolonged periods. ive had bps that got ri from jsut a little bit too much humidity and i also got it from my heattape going out for a day

but what do i know im no biologist im just a guy with real world observations of actual facts!

---

I actually LOL'ed at your "real world observations"!

Yeah, snakes in completely sterile tubs are completely comparable to snakes in the wild, where bacteria and other nasties you wouldn't want in your tubs thrive around the snakes.

Later, Matt

Matt. Your young, easily impressionable, naive and easily acting your age.

This is why I shall never have children, I am not young enough to know everything. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Matt. Your young, easily impressionable, naive and easily acting your age.

This is why I shall never have children, I am not young enough to know everything. :rolleyes:

---

Where does this come from?

Funny how you call me easily impressionable when lots of folks on this forum form their opinions from the Barker paper.

But please, do answer my question.

EDIT: On a side note, I'd hate to have me as a kid as well, but not for this reason. :rofl:

Later, Matt

Just because the Burmese did, does not mean the balls would.
They come from two different climates and are two different species. I don't really understand why people keep saying 'well, the burms did, so the balls can too!'. There's absolutely zero logic behind that statement.

Florida is a different terrain and environment all-together from the African Plains. Burmese, IMO, have thrived so well in Florida due to the environment being very similar to their own back in Burma. I also wouldn't doubt that Anacondas would also thrive in Florida environments. Other Boas, not quite as much. I also have heard that people say on this site that they're sure there's one or two Retics down there at least, but I don't really know if that's true or if they had any evidence supporting it... So if there's only a few, it's clear they are not thriving and becoming as well known as the Burms for obvious reasons, even though they are both large species of Python.

I also doubt Ball Pythons would become a dangerous threat to people's lives and their cats and dogs or the environment itself as the Burms have in the Everglades.

Also, are we talking about the Everglades here or all of Florida? People keep saying 'marsh' or 'wetlands' which isn't all of Florida, though it is in fact, a large chunk of it where it would be warm enough for them to survive.

I think these animals are capable of surviving, but I do not think they are capable of thriving and breeding for long periods of time.

Matt, if you need to ask, then you do not understand. ;)

First, let me say that I did not read through each paper in its entirety. I am also not bashing the Barkers. I merely skimmed through each and read a few things here and there, but I feel it was enough to say what I think about the papers. Again, I'm not trying to downplay the work that the Barkers have done, but that is not science. The only paper that even slightly resembles a scientific paper is the one where Reed did the work. None of those would have a chance at being published in a journal after going through the peer reviewing process.

I don't see what Matt's age has to do with any of this, especially since he is the only one on the right track. I personally would never use those papers as a source.

Clearly, my quote is being haphazardly misunderstood.

"I am not young enough to know everything." -Oscar Wilde.

Go ahead everyone, absorb. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SerpentesCiconii

First, let me say that I did not read through each paper in its entirety. I am also not bashing the Barkers. I merely skimmed through each and read a few things here and there, but I feel it was enough to say what I think about the papers. Again, I'm not trying to downplay the work that the Barkers have done, but that is not science. The only paper that even slightly resembles a scientific paper is the one where Reed did the work. None of those would have a chance at being published in a journal after going through the peer reviewing process.

I don't see what Matt's age has to do with any of this, especially since he is the only one on the right track. I personally would never use those papers as a source.

---

I just finished reading all three hyperlinks, and I must say that I agree with you. DutchHerp is not entirely incorrect, and he has some valid arguments. I respect the Barkers, but this couldn't have been their best work.

The sources Kaorte referenced are: a review of the published Burm study, an open letter of correspondance, and a list questions and answers to the public about the burmese problem. Should reviews and open letters be complete complicated scientifice articles up for publishing in scientific journals? I think not.

I would not consider what was referenced a complete scientific article. It is a review, (or a response to), other paper(s) (e.g. By Reed) already published.

Yes, they did have a few references in their notes to support their rebuttals. No, they did not, in turn, do an entire study. I don't feel that the expectation that they do their own study for a rebuttal is expected or required for a peer review.

They should be expected to write a critique and review using common sense, references from known studies and their own experience from working with the animals, like was used in their paper.

Also considering (but should be pointed out again) this was a critique of a published paper up for review, since I fear few will actually read it and understand that fine point; it is correct, this response from them would not be published in most scientific journal, nor do I get the feeling from reading it that it was an attempt to BE published as a concrete scientific paper.

"To summarize our criticisms of this paper, it is a rambling and disjointed attempt to validate general suspicions that imported boas and pythons may become established in feral populations in the United States. As stated by Reed, “A major problem with this type of risk analysis is that it is essentially an untestable hypothesis.” We point out that scientific analysis must be testable, or there is no science. In our opinion this entire paper is essentially a narrative assertion, a subjectively chosen collection of confirming anecdotes. All statements regarding any invasive risk from the 23 taxa used in the analyses should be regarded as invalid. Such recommendations as are made in this paper are the outcome of the narrative and not the result of any statistical analysis or scientific investigation.

Where do you think these "peer reviews" come from? Everyone, just like Dutch Herp, is allowed their own criticisms and opinions. ;)

This seems more of a topic about others' opinions (in general, not necessarily about the opinion that is important) and the Barkers information then it does about the actual original intended post.
In other words, this thread is off topic. Kind of upsetting. If people weren't busy arguing opinions rather than discussing them, this would be a very informative and interesting topic.