I am going to have to disagree

With the people who state that feeding your snake inside his enclosure, or in a separate enclosure makes no difference...


Last night i decided to feed my BP in his tank for the first time...I've NEVER seen him act so aggressive...the minute (actually the second) I plopped the mouse in there, he started cruising, he knew right away...It was amazing to see his hunting behavior which I've never seen...

But...yes there is a but, actually there are two butts...and I cannot lie...

He missed! For the first time, he missed! Granted it was an awkward situation(Kinda like the last scene in Kill Bill 2 where Uma Thurman has her final meeting with David Carradine [may he rest in peace]...no the mouse wasn't having a philosophical moment about the identity of superman...) , he wasn't positioned right, and I guess he was kinda trigger happy...Nonetheless, he MISSED! Do you guys know what that does to a snakes pride?! They don't wanna talk to you, they start hanging with the wrong crowd...they start experimenting with god knows whats on the streets...They go bungee jumping and not invite you because they think your just not "cool" to do it with them, when they don't realize bungee jumping was a fear of mine that I planned on conquering by the age of 25...and now I am 29...Okay maybe not all that, but it did hurt my pride a little bit...He NEVER misses!

Additionally i was cleaning his tank today, and he came out of his hide very aggressively looking to see if i had his food...he NEVER comes out of his hide when I'm cleaning...I must admit, i was a bit intimidated...

I have to say that I'm no snake's pushover

so i will continue feeding him in his feeding bin...to see if his Osbourne behavior will subside...

Thank you,

There will always be at least one time when the snake misses. They are really not all that smart and a miss can happen quite often.

The only reason my snakes would be "looking at me aggressively" is if I didn't feed them enough. Even then, it isn't enough to provoke a bite. They at least know a mouse when they see one, and a giant hand is not a mouse.

Every snake is different so theres really no golden rule to feeding them in seperate enclosures, I feed mine in there enclosures and have never had any cage aggresion what so ever.

It is within the realm of possibility that the length of daylight, more lighted hours in a given day than dark ones, the raise in temperature that even a airconditioned house will have in the summer, the age and growth rate of your snake (I am ASS uming that it is not a full grown adult but still getting there size wise), and the inherent interest in food for snakes of that size in these conditions, may have had more to do with his aggressive feeding than merely being in his cage while fed.

Or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montie Python

With the people who state that feeding your snake inside his enclosure, or in a separate enclosure makes no difference...


Last night i decided to feed my BP in his tank for the first time...I've NEVER seen him act so aggressive...the minute (actually the second) I plopped the mouse in there, he started cruising, he knew right away...It was amazing to see his hunting behavior which I've never seen...

But...yes there is a but, actually there are two butts...and I cannot lie...

He missed! For the first time, he missed! Granted it was an awkward situation(Kinda like the last scene in Kill Bill 2 where Uma Thurman has her final meeting with David Carradine [may he rest in peace]...no the mouse wasn't having a philosophical moment about the identity of superman...) , he wasn't positioned right, and I guess he was kinda trigger happy...Nonetheless, he MISSED! Do you guys know what that does to a snakes pride?! They don't wanna talk to you, they start hanging with the wrong crowd...they start experimenting with god knows whats on the streets...They go bungee jumping and not invite you because they think your just not "cool" to do it with them, when they don't realize bungee jumping was a fear of mine that I planned on conquering by the age of 25...and now I am 29...Okay maybe not all that, but it did hurt my pride a little bit...He NEVER misses!

Additionally i was cleaning his tank today, and he came out of his hide very aggressively looking to see if i had his food...he NEVER comes out of his hide when I'm cleaning...I must admit, i was a bit intimidated...

I have to say that I'm no snake's pushover

so i will continue feeding him in his feeding bin...to see if his Osbourne behavior will subside...

Thank you,

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You are asserting that after one feeding in his enclosure he became aggressive?

Have you gotten him an application to the snake version of MENSA? You should.

I know I am excited when the food comes..Sometimes I even bite my hand accidentally while shoveling food in. Don't hate on the snakes for being hungry...

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I know I am excited when the food comes..Sometimes I even bite my hand accidentally while shoveling food in. Don't hate on the snakes for being hungry...

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yeah, every snake is different I believe.

I feed my boy right in his home and I've never experianced even the slightest bit of aggression from him. And whenever I have my hands in there and its not a feeding day he completely ignores me.

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You are asserting that after one feeding in his enclosure he became aggressive?

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Classical conditioning can definitely occur after only one pairing of the US (unconditioned stimulus-feeding response to prey item) and the CS (conditioned stimulus-opening the tank to handle/clean/etc.). But if that's true for snakes who knows...

Dennis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

Classical conditioning can definitely occur after only one pairing of the US (unconditioned stimulus-feeding response to prey item) and the CS (conditioned stimulus-opening the tank to handle/clean/etc.). But if that's true for snakes who knows...

Dennis

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This makes about as much sense to me as this: if you blow up a balloon it will expand but if you don't it could but may not....

I have always fed in the cage without any issues....:rolleye2:

If being fed in the familar environment of his own enclosure made him be a more confident hunter then that's excellent! Just the kind of response I want from my snakes when they are fed in their own homes especially on live prey.

As far as the other, I never make a judgement call on any animal's behaviour from a single incident. Patterns are what leads me to make a conclusion about something but that's just me perhaps.

I have always fed in their cage and never had any aggresion issues. Even if my guys are in shed they still stay pretty calm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

Classical conditioning can definitely occur after only one pairing of the US (unconditioned stimulus-feeding response to prey item) and the CS (conditioned stimulus-opening the tank to handle/clean/etc.). But if that's true for snakes who knows...

Dennis

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:weirdface

Come again?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This makes about as much sense to me as this: if you blow up a balloon it will expand but if you don't it could but may not....

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roflmao! i agree :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You are asserting that after one feeding in his enclosure he became aggressive?

Have you gotten him an application to the snake version of MENSA? You should.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I know I am excited when the food comes..Sometimes I even bite my hand accidentally while shoveling food in. Don't hate on the snakes for being hungry...

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Those were just funny! Thanks for the laughs, I really needed it today :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

Classical conditioning can definitely occur after only one pairing of the US (unconditioned stimulus-feeding response to prey item) and the CS (conditioned stimulus-opening the tank to handle/clean/etc.). But if that's true for snakes who knows...

Dennis

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Snakes do not have the intelligence for the conditioning laws to apply.

You are giving your snake WAY too much credit. He's hungry, move up a prey size.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Snakes do not have the intelligence for the conditioning laws to apply.

You are giving your snake WAY too much credit. He's hungry, move up a prey size.

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I disagree. Flatworms such as as planaria can be trained with electrical shock. They are far lower on a developemental scale than a reptile.

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Originally Posted by ssballow

I disagree. Flatworms such as as planaria can be trained with electrical shock. They are far lower on a developemental scale than a reptile.

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Is training doing something you have decided to do as opposed to conditioning which is something you do in a given set of circumstances, ie, electro-shock stimulation?

Or is there no difference at all?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is training doing something you have decided to do as opposed to conditioning which is something you do in a given set of circumstances, ie, electro-shock stimulation?

Or is there no difference at all?

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I would say that depending on the conotation, the words are synonymous, at least as I used it. Any vertebrate can be conditioned to adapt to routine. One of the simplest instincts in animals is the aquisition of food. If the aquisition is the same over a certain time period, the animal will come to depend on the same thing happenning and adapt to the same behavior. Some of those behaviors can eventually be written into genetic code becoming permenant adaptations. At least this is how I understand it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssballow

I would say that depending on the conotation, the words are synonymous, at least as I used it. Any vertebrate can be conditioned to adapt to routine. One of the simplest instincts in animals is the aquisition of food. If the aquisition is the same over a certain time period, the animal will come to depend on the same thing happenning and adapt to the same behavior. Some of those behaviors can eventually be written into genetic code becoming permenant adaptations. At least this is how I understand it.

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Semantics, wonderful.

Most of the time.

Thanks though. Didn't help, but didn't hurt either.

I am totally and utterly lost, these big words hurt my brain. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssballow

I disagree. Flatworms such as as planaria can be trained with electrical shock. They are far lower on a developemental scale than a reptile.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is training doing something you have decided to do as opposed to conditioning which is something you do in a given set of circumstances, ie, electro-shock stimulation?

Or is there no difference at all?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssballow

I would say that depending on the conotation, the words are synonymous, at least as I used it. Any vertebrate can be conditioned to adapt to routine. One of the simplest instincts in animals is the aquisition of food. If the aquisition is the same over a certain time period, the animal will come to depend on the same thing happenning and adapt to the same behavior. Some of those behaviors can eventually be written into genetic code becoming permenant adaptations. At least this is how I understand it.

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Translation:

Yup, maybe.

I hope that helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Translation:

Yup, maybe.

I hope that helps.

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It all makes sense now. haha. and to think I couldnt understand that. :(

All of my snakes are fed in thier enclosures, and I've had very few agression issues. Infact, alot of my sankes have become a bit more docile. Granted they are on f/t but I don't make it easy for them (dead rat dance, so they actually have to hunt some).

I would make sure he doesn't equate hand with food by handling him and what not, and I would not drop the mouse in with my hand, but with something else to that he doesn't see the heat from your hand and think "DINNER!"

When I feed live (sometimes I have to for the picky ones) I keep them in a box and gently drop them in without pre-scenting and let the snake do all the hunting. No prolonged agression issues at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This makes about as much sense to me as this: if you blow up a balloon it will expand but if you don't it could but may not....

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Really? I thought it was pretty clear. But I'll try to explain it further...

If you give an odor puff to a bee then give it sucrose it will extract its proboscis (the thing they use to eat). If you give it the same odor puff again without presenting the sucrose it will still extend its proboscis expecting to be fed again. Here classical conditioning has occurred after only one pairing of the unconditioned stimulus (the sucrose) with the conditioned stimulus (the odor puff). The animal has paired the odor puff with the food so that the odor puff alone is enough to produce the feeding response.

A forum member doubted that the snake could "learn aggression" after only one feeding in the tank. Knowing this about bees then I'd say yes, this is absolutely plausible. But do I know this for certain? Of course not...

And as for the intelligence thing...I'm pretty sure most animals have the capacity for some levels of associative learning (i.e. classical conditioning) so I definitely wouldn't count snakes out on this. Leeches, crayfish, praying mantises, bees, etc. have been classically trained so why not snakes?

Dennis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

Really? I thought it was pretty clear. But I'll try to explain it further...

If you give an odor puff to a bee then give it sucrose it will extract its proboscis (the thing they use to eat). If you give it the same odor puff again without presenting the sucrose it will still extend its proboscis expecting to be fed again. Here classical conditioning has occurred after only one pairing of the unconditioned stimulus (the sucrose) with the conditioned stimulus (the odor puff). The animal has paired the odor puff with the food so that the odor puff alone is enough to produce the feeding response.

A forum member doubted that the snake could "learn aggression" after only one feeding in the tank. Knowing this about bees then I'd say yes, this is absolutely plausible. But do I know this for certain? Of course not...

And as for the intelligence thing...I'm pretty sure most animals have the capacity for some levels of associative learning (i.e. classical conditioning) so I definitely wouldn't count snakes out on this. Leeches, crayfish, praying mantises, bees, etc. have been classically trained so why not snakes?

Dennis

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Absolutely none.

What is an odor puff?

I think semantics is at the root of this discussion and not any real disagreement with possibilities.

For me anyway.

I'm sorry guys. I tend to use vocabulary like that so I myself won't forget what it means. I went through a lot to get my degree, but hardly ever use my knowledge for anything important. Please, excuse my ramblings!

Yes, any animal, complex enough to have a spinal chord, is capable of learned behavior/training/conditioning/routine.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Absolutely none.

What is an odor puff?

I think semantics is at the root of this discussion and not any real disagreement with possibilities.

For me anyway.

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Absolutely none of what?

An odor puff is a little puff of air they shoot at the bee that has a distinct smell. I'm not sure how they go about doing it but I imagine a really weak vacuum hose that shoots air instead of sucks it.

Dennis

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

Absolutely none of what?

An odor puff is a little puff of air they shoot at the bee that has a distinct smell. I'm not sure how they go about doing it but I imagine a really weak vacuum hose that shoots air instead of sucks it.

Dennis

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Hmmmm, I thought I was agreeing with a question I can no longer find.

The brain dims with usage as I have just proven.

Do bees do the protruding proboscis everytime they land on something or only when it smells tasty?

I was picturing a coloured ball like the crunch berries in Captian Crunch cereal when you mentioned puffs. They're sweet too. And quite colourful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Hmmmm, I thought I was agreeing with a question I can no longer find.

The brain dims with usage as I have just proven.

Do bees do the protruding proboscis everytime they land on something or only when it smells tasty?

I was picturing a coloured ball like the crunch berries in Captian Crunch cereal when you mentioned puffs. They're sweet too. And quite colourful.

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Haha, to be honest that's what I pictured in class when we were talking about it. I avoided describing it on the exam though for obvious reasons.

And damn...my brain has obviously dimmed some as well seeing as how I just wrote a huge explanation for a question that you didn't actually ask. The much simpler answer to the actual question you asked is no, they do not extend their proboscis when they land on anything. But they do extend it every time their antennae encounter sugary/sweet foods.

Dennis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

Haha, to be honest that's what I pictured in class when we were talking about it. I avoided describing it on the exam though for obvious reasons.

And damn...my brain has obviously dimmed some as well seeing as how I just wrote a huge explanation for a question that you didn't actually ask. The much simpler answer to the actual question you asked is no, they do not extend their proboscis when they land on anything. But they do extend it every time their antennae encounter sugary/sweet foods.

Dennis

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Wouldn't that be considered instinctual? :confused:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Wouldn't that be considered instinctual? :confused:

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That Captain Crunch's Crunchberries were a logical consideration?

I don't think it's instinctual, just plain old commonsensical.

I mean, who doesn't have a protruding proboscis when Crunchberries are involved?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

That Captain Crunch's Crunchberries were a logical consideration?

I don't think it's instinctual, just plain old commonsensical.

I mean, who doesn't have a protruding proboscis when Crunchberries are involved?

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Very true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Wouldn't that be considered instinctual? :confused:

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Is what instinctual?

Are you talking about the extending of the proboscis when it touches food? If so then yes, that is instinctual. Classical conditioning involves pairing that instinct with some novel experience like a color or odor puff so that when the animal experiences that novel experience alone it produces the behavior. If I'm only confusing you wikipedia classical conditioning and read up on Ian Pavlov. : )

And sorry if I'm hijacking the thread...
Dennis

I agree with Frankykeno. You finally get a good feeding response from your snake, and you get scared and write a thread to tell us that you will only feed snakes in separate tubs from now on? If your snake is used to being taken out of its enclosure and moved into a separate tub before it ever senses a food item or gets fed, it is likely to be startled when all of a sudden, there is a prey item running around its house. Maybe, had he been fed in his enclosure from the start, he would be used to it and would not over react.

But even more likely, it could just be that it has always been nervous, and therefor hesitant to eat when it gets picked up and moved into a cold, empty tub, and since it is in the comfort of it's own enclosure, where it feels secure, it was more confident and had a normal feeding response for the first time since you have owned it. I feed over 40 pythons in their enclosures, and most of them have good, aggressive feeding responses, which is what you want in a ball python.

Also, for the mods or admins, is putting users on an ignore list the only way to prevent certain posts from being visible if I visit a thread more than once, or is there a way to block individual posts?

LOL... funny story. :D Delilah misses ALL the time, and usually looks embarrassed by it. I think she was actually relieved when we offered F/T last week, because she finally didn't have to worry about the strike - she was like, "Yes! They did all the work for me!" ;) She took that thawed mouse faster than she's ever taken live, which made me very happy.

As for feeding in/out of their enclosure, I've always fed mine inside of theirs without a problem. I even hand-feed Delilah sometimes (with tongs), and she's never been aggressive about it... guess it just depends on the individual snake.

Oh, and another funny story I just thought of - Mona was really hungry one night, and cruising around her tank looking for food. She kept seeing random shadows and images (from her background), and getting excited until she realized it wasn't food... then she saw something that must have REALLY looked like a rodent, because she attacked the glass wall! She bonked her nose pretty hard, and slithered back into her cave all ashamed. :oops::rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Also, for the mods or admins, is putting users on an ignore list the only way to prevent certain posts from being visible if I visit a thread more than once, or is there a way to block individual posts?

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You can only put users on ignore, not specific posts. :)

Back to your regularly scheduled topic. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

Is what instinctual?

Are you talking about the extending of the proboscis when it touches food? If so then yes, that is instinctual. Classical conditioning involves pairing that instinct with some novel experience like a color or odor puff so that when the animal experiences that novel experience alone it produces the behavior. If I'm only confusing you wikipedia classical conditioning and read up on Ian Pavlov. : )

And sorry if I'm hijacking the thread...
Dennis

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IF cage aggression were somehow related to being conditioned via being fed in the cage (:weirdface) then all you'd have to do to un-condition the snake is to open the cage at random intervals without feeding it.

I've had fish be conditioned to shooting to the top of the tank whenever my hand was up there. But I'm not in the habit of handling fish so it is understandable that they'd be conditioned to expect food.

Most pet snakes, unlike fish, are handled. I would hazard a WAG and throw out that the average snake is handled at random intervals several times before it's fed.

Therefore, I seriously doubt that after only one feeding, amidst several handling sessions, and being previously fed in a separate bin - that the OP's snake all of a sudden is conditioned to expect food when his cage door is opened.

Then again - what do I know?

Right?

There other thing to consider is that the OP is mistaking inquisitiveness (damn I spelled that right but misspelled consider.. figures) for aggression. I can tell you from first hand experience that you see an aggressive snake once or twice you wont soon forget it.

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Originally Posted by joshn6805

I am totally and utterly lost, these big words hurt my brain. :D

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I can usually follow big words, but this thread has me lost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hapa_Haole

I just wrote a huge explanation for a question that you didn't actually ask.

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Maybe that's why I'm lost, ROFL! :D

Oh, BTW JLC, THANK YOU for modifying that "b" word in the OP. Hurts my eyes.

They modified my op, because I said the opposite of a male cat? Wow!...Sorry for offending the offended...Your eyes should feel a lot better now...


Wow this thread was surely hijacked!

My point in the matter was simply that I disagree with people saying there is no difference between feeding them in a different enclosure rather than their own enclosure...from my observation...MY with my ONE snake...MY observation...I meaning ME, noticed that my snake was a bit more aggressive today, and I'm drawing this reason due to have feeding him in his enclosure for the first time...

I am not saying that either one is better, im just stating my observation today...And I definitely do not see my snake's behavior as a bad thing...If you guys noticed I was just making jokes about it throughout my original post (though it may have not been funny to anyone, it was still a joke), as the title of this thread states: I am going to have to disagree...

sure you can rebuttal,

But I sometimes think, people sit and wait on this site browsing through the forums, for anyone to slip...Just so they can be the first one to knock them down...And a lot of "know it alls" love to state their opinion even though it has nothing to do with the original post...

Sorry I ranted but enough is enough already...

Everybody has there own opinion and they are entitled to state that. You had your right to state your disaggrement and you did so quite well I thought. Sorry about your thread being hijacked, but you should have requested an admin to close it if you thought it was getting out of hand. This is a family forum and it is stated very clearly in the sites tos/rules and its your responsibility to know what to say and whats not appropriate.

Im curious to know what this aggressive behavior looked like. & if this was already explained, someone point me in that direction plz :-D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montie Python

They modified my op, because I said the opposite of a male cat? Wow!...Sorry for offending the offended...Your eyes should feel a lot better now...

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Do you mean the opposite of a male canine?

A female cat is called a 'queen'.

I don't think a mode would modify the post if it contained 'queen'...but perhaps I am missing something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Do you mean the opposite of a male canine?

A female cat is called a 'queen'.

I don't think a mode would modify the post if it contained 'queen'...but perhaps I am missing something.

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I suppose it may just depend on which MODE the MOD was in.

Friendly MODE- no problem
Irritated MODE- some people......
Frustrated in General MODE- infraction infraction, infractions all around

And female cats are not just queens but Queens of they see, have ever seen and will ever see. Try to get it right next time.

Sheesh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montie Python

They modified my op, because I said the opposite of a male cat? Wow!...Sorry for offending the offended...Your eyes should feel a lot better now...


Wow this thread was surely hijacked!

My point in the matter was simply that I disagree with people saying there is no difference between feeding them in a different enclosure rather than their own enclosure...from my observation...MY with my ONE snake...MY observation...I meaning ME, noticed that my snake was a bit more aggressive today, and I'm drawing this reason due to have feeding him in his enclosure for the first time...

I am not saying that either one is better, im just stating my observation today...And I definitely do not see my snake's behavior as a bad thing...If you guys noticed I was just making jokes about it throughout my original post (though it may have not been funny to anyone, it was still a joke), as the title of this thread states: I am going to have to disagree...

sure you can rebuttal,

But I sometimes think, people sit and wait on this site browsing through the forums, for anyone to slip...Just so they can be the first one to knock them down...And a lot of "know it alls" love to state their opinion even though it has nothing to do with the original post...

Sorry I ranted but enough is enough already...

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You could put everybody on "ignore".

That way you could post all the inane garbage you want and not hear a word of protest or have to suffer through having another forum member argue your pithy observations.

Someday someone may get a grant to do nothing but study snake behavior. They will then, with great care and diligence, proceed to answer that age old question: Does feeding a snake in it's cage make it aggressive?

I predict two things when that happens:

(1) Some of us will find fault with the experiment and question the results.

(2) The researcher will base his results on more than one animal and more than one feeding incident.

Nobody is knocking you down - you disagreed with the collective consensus of many, many experienced snake owners. You based your argument on one snake and one incident. Whether you were serious or joking (I'm guessing the former due to your last post) you can't tell me you didn't expect people to challenge your assertion.

I think a lot of people have had fun with this thread. All because you dared to (apologies to Jack Spirko) challenge the dogma of this site.

I've had so much fun, in fact, that I'm going to start a thread tonight titled "I'm Going to Have to Disagree But My Snake is a Vegan".

I will base my post on the fact that my stupid ball python hasn't eaten a mouse, a rat or a slab of baby-back ribs since February. If he refuses to eat meat, he must be a vegan - right?

Cheers.

I don't think a one time thing can be considered "conditioning". That contradicts the definition. You can't have a routine if the cycle has only happened once.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You could put everybody on "ignore".

That way you could post all the inane garbage you want and not hear a word of protest or have to suffer through having another forum member argue your pithy observations.

Someday someone may get a grant to do nothing but study snake behavior. They will then, with great care and diligence, proceed to answer that age old question: Does feeding a snake in it's cage make it aggressive?

I predict two things when that happens:

(1) Some of us will find fault with the experiment and question the results.

(2) The researcher will base his results on more than one animal and more than one feeding incident.

Nobody is knocking you down - you disagreed with the collective consensus of many, many experienced snake owners. You based your argument on one snake and one incident. Whether you were serious or joking (I'm guessing the former due to your last post) you can't tell me you didn't expect people to challenge your assertion.

I think a lot of people have had fun with this thread. All because you dared to (apologies to Jack Spirko) challenge the dogma of this site.

I've had so much fun, in fact, that I'm going to start a thread tonight titled "I'm Going to Have to Disagree But My Snake is a Vegan".

I will base my post on the fact that my stupid ball python hasn't eaten a mouse, a rat or a slab of baby-back ribs since February. If he refuses to eat meat, he must be a vegan - right?

Cheers.

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Chortle Chortle Chuckle Laugh

He used the word "pithy." How cool is that?