Would a male ball python reach 5 feet

My 4 years and 10 months old male ball python is currently 4 feet long or almost 4 feet long. Would he reach 5 feet in the future or he will continue to grow in girth only? I,m asking because i just built for him a new enclosure, size in feet: 2 long, 2,62 deep, 3,30 high. I am wondering if this enclosure size would be enough for him forever or i will have to upgrade in the future?

My 2 year old male is 4½ feet long already, but he seems to have hit his 'max' early, as he hasn't grown much for the last few months. I think if your male is already 5 years old, he probably won't get a lot longer.

He should be fully grown by now, but I've heard people say that snakes grow their entire lives so maybe not ?

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

He should be fully grown by now, but I've heard people say that snakes grow their entire lives so maybe not ?

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Snakes grow their entire life, but just very very slightly after a certain age, so it's considered "full grown" and barely noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Dutti

My 4 years and 10 months old male ball python is currently 4 feet long or almost 4 feet long. Would he reach 5 feet in the future or he will continue to grow in girth only? I,m asking because i just built for him a new enclosure, size in feet: 2 long, 2,62 deep, 3,30 high. I am wondering if this enclosure size would be enough for him forever or i will have to upgrade in the future?

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You should tilt it on it's side. The 3.3 ft in length would do your snake more good considering you'd still have 2' high.

2 high will be a tad harder to get those temps just right and 3 high well that is more for arboreal snakes. 3-4 feet long by roughly 2 wide (give or take half a foot) by between 1-2 feet high is best for ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by Regius_049

You should tilt it on it's side. The 3.3 ft in length would do your snake more good considering you'd still have 2' high.

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Im going to utilize the height. So he will have a board to lay on and perches to climb on. So he will have a real second floor where he can stretch himself. I know it's unusual to have it higher than longer, but the most important thing is to utilize the space.

Mine is just over 53 inches and is two years old - he's over 1000 grams and is still shedding regularly

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Originally Posted by SDA

2 high will be a tad harder to get those temps just right and 3 high well that is more for arboreal snakes. 3-4 feet long by roughly 2 wide (give or take half a foot) by between 1-2 feet high is best for ball pythons.

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He will have only belly heat anyway. He is fine with that. It's what he had in his old enclosure. We had this discussion before, and we found out that male BP,s are a semi-arboreal snakes.

Read this thread

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...arboreal-snake

Even if your snake is more arboreal, it is still best to give them the option to stretch out fully. Therefore, if you want to have good height and still give your snake decent room, I would recommend upgrading to something longer and still tall enough for climbing room. At minimum 3x2 for a 5 foot snake, but bigger is always better. Just give lots of hiding options and clutter, and add as many climbing things as you want.

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Originally Posted by Starscream

Even if your snake is more arboreal, it is still best to give them the option to stretch out fully. Therefore, if you want to have good height and still give your snake decent room, I would recommend upgrading to something longer and still tall enough for climbing room. At minimum 3x2 for a 5 foot snake, but bigger is always better. Just give lots of hiding options and clutter, and add as many climbing things as you want.

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My BP is a shy animal. He does not like to be seen a lot. He won,t fit good in a glass tank. There are times at night when he gets real active, in such times i have to get him out of his enclosure because he will be too active no matter how big the enclosure is. By the way, the amount of space he is getting is very good compared with what some members in this forum said they are housing their balls in. I have read suggestions in this forum that 0,82 feet (25 cm) height is enough for an adult ball python. Plenty of people keep even adult boas in racks and they aren't quite 12 inches high. They need such recommendations of yours.

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Originally Posted by Dutti

My 4 years and 10 months old male ball python is currently 4 feet long or almost 4 feet long. Would he reach 5 feet in the future or he will continue to grow in girth only? I,m asking because i just built for him a new enclosure, size in feet: 2 long, 2,62 deep, 3,30 high. I am wondering if this enclosure size would be enough for him forever or i will have to upgrade in the future?

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2 feet long is way too small for a 5 foot snake no matter how you try and rationalize it. They would benefit more from floor space. They are arboreal to an extent but they arent skilled climbers like boas. My pied girl is 4.5 feet long and will be 4 years old next month and i have her in a T10 with a shelf and that is plenty for her and she is a very active BP. half the time she sits out laying around lol.

In my opinion, the sweet spot for cage height is 18-24 inches. Anything higher requires the addition of an RHP to warm the air in the cage unless you keep the room around 78-80F.

And i would be very surprised if a male BP reached 5 feet. Like i said, my female pied is 4.5 feet and 4 years old next month. At last weigh in she was just over 1600 grams and that was after her 6 month fast. Since then she has been eating 2 small rats or a medium rat every week. And she was a garbage can as a baby and ate anything that got close to her. Sure you dont have a female?

Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with going for a tall cage but you need to balance it out with the floor space as this isnt a GTP and even those, you still want at least 3 feet of cage length for an adult. My rule of thumb is i have my cages long enough for my snakes to stretch out. The only exception is Caesar my retic who atm is in a T25 72x30x18 with a shelf and he is 7 feet long. I will most likely be upgrading him to a T65 next summer 96x30x18 with a shelf and giving the old cage to my suriname.

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Originally Posted by Dutti

My BP is a shy animal. He does not like to be seen a lot. He won,t fit good in a glass tank. There are times at night when he gets real active, in such times i have to get him out of his enclosure because he will be too active no matter how big the enclosure is. By the way, the amount of space he is getting is very good compared with what some members in this forum said they are housing their balls in. I have read suggestions in this forum that 0,82 feet (25 cm) height is enough for an adult ball python. Plenty of people keep even adult boas in racks and they aren't quite 12 inches high. They need such recommendations of yours.

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Your animal is shy. That is why you add clutter and more hides. He is very active to the point you need to take him out. Give him more room to roam and he will use it. I mentioned nothing about glass tanks. Please also note that I said at minimum. I prefer to give mine the ability to stretch out in one direction plus height. So for me, my personal rule is the cage is at minimum the length of the snake.

When Maze is old enough I plan on putting her in a 6x2x2 or larger, because I know she will use the space and I do plan on making it as cluttered as possible.

If I were you I would also look into the recommendation of a RHP. They create a more natural heat gradient than an UTH. Plus with greater height you can make more variable basking spots so your snake can pick what temperature he wants to be.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

2 feet long is way too small for a 5 foot snake no matter how you try and rationalize it. They would benefit more from floor space. They are arboreal to an extent but they arent skilled climbers like boas. My pied girl is 4.5 feet long and will be 4 years old next month and i have her in a T10 with a shelf and that is plenty for her and she is a very active BP. half the time she sits out laying around lol.

In my opinion, the sweet spot for cage height is 18-24 inches. Anything higher requires the addition of an RHP to warm the air in the cage unless you keep the room around 78-80F.

And i would be very surprised if a male BP reached 5 feet. Like i said, my female pied is 4.5 feet and 4 years old next month. At last weigh in she was just over 1600 grams and that was after her 6 month fast. Since then she has been eating 2 small rats or a medium rat every week. And she was a garbage can as a baby and ate anything that got close to her. Sure you dont have a female?

Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with going for a tall cage but you need to balance it out with the floor space as this isnt a GTP and even those, you still want at least 3 feet of cage length for an adult. My rule of thumb is i have my cages long enough for my snakes to stretch out. The only exception is Caesar my retic who atm is in a T25 72x30x18 with a shelf and he is 7 feet long. I will most likely be upgrading him to a T65 next summer 96x30x18 with a shelf and giving the old cage to my suriname.

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He is not 5 feet, he is 4 feet. I was asking if he could reach 5 feet in the future. And yes the room is around 80f. He can strech out to the above, he will be having a second floor. He is really a semi-arboreal snake. Now i will see first how things work out in this cage.

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Originally Posted by Starscream

Your animal is shy. That is why you add clutter and more hides. He is very active to the point you need to take him out. Give him more room to roam and he will use it. I mentioned nothing about glass tanks. Please also note that I said at minimum. I prefer to give mine the ability to stretch out in one direction plus height. So for me, my personal rule is the cage is at minimum the length of the snake.

When Maze is old enough I plan on putting her in a 6x2x2 or larger, because I know she will use the space and I do plan on making it as cluttered as possible.

If I were you I would also look into the recommendation of a RHP. They create a more natural heat gradient than an UTH. Plus with greater height you can make more variable basking spots so your snake can pick what temperature he wants to be.

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Now he will be ok in this cage as he is 4 feet only. He can now strech out but only in one direction to the above. If he grows longer like raches 4,5 feet or more i will have to consider making for him a new cage. But the maximum i could add will be 0,60 feet in length. So a future cage would be 2,60 instead of 2 feet long. That,s it because i don,t have much space left. But 0,60 feet would make a differance. All my snakes have only belly heat except my GTP who has heating from above. Its working good for all of them. The tempreture isn,t a problem. The room itself is warm. In sommer they do not use the belly heat at all.

So, here's the thing. You ask for thoughts/advice, and when it's given to you, it seems you disregard it if it isn't what you want to hear. I'm not trying to be rude, just reciting from observations in this thread and others.

I can understand ignoring my advice -- I'm new, I only have one snake, and a young one at that. But there people here with plenty of experience, like Sauzo here, who know what they are talking about. And they say your animal needs more space. It doesn't matter if you don't have room. This is what your animal, at minimum, needs.

If you can't provide the bare minimum for your animal, you might want to consider rehoming it. There is no shame in admitting you cannot provide for an animal- I would argue that it takes more strength to admit you are wrong.

I ask you, please, to consider what is best for your animal, not you, and make a decison based on that.

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Originally Posted by Starscream

So, here's the thing. You ask for thoughts/advice, and when it's given to you, it seems you disregard it if it isn't what you want to hear. I'm not trying to be rude, just reciting from observations in this thread and others.

I can understand ignoring my advice -- I'm new, I only have one snake, and a young one at that. But there people here with plenty of experience, like Sauzo here, who know what they are talking about. And they say your animal needs more space. It doesn't matter if you don't have room. This is what your animal, at minimum, needs.

If you can't provide the bare minimum for your animal, you might want to consider rehoming it. There is no shame in admitting you cannot provide for an animal- I would argue that it takes more strength to admit you are wrong.

I ask you, please, to consider what is best for your animal, not you, and make a decison based on that.

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The size of the cage is not small. If i just turned it around everybody would say its big enough. Its that the height is more than the lenght. I doubt that someone else has such a cage. Now read please this thread and you will see that many of those experienced keepers don,t provide their BP,s with half or even 30 % of the height which i gave my BP to climb. Tell them please to consider rehoming their snakes: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...closure-height

Thank you for proving my point. Have a nice day. :)

I have a 46 inch male and I can guarantee without a doubt your male needs more space. I just upgraded to a 4 foot enclosure and that is just about big enough. If you don't think ball pythons like to stretch out, you are sorely mistaken.

I've always been told that ball pythons prefer long length, shorter heights, and narrow width.

My 40 glass tank is 48" long, 18" wide and 18" tall, and seemed the perfect size. I now have all of them in tubs, in a rack system to conserve electricity for the winter, and they seem happy in there. I suppose they would like to climb sometimes, but I was always told that LENGTH of the enclosure was the most important for balls.

I don't really know the answer to this, as it seems some beeps love to climb, and I personally like to keep them in larger enclosures if I can afford to heat it, and keep it humid!

oops, meant 40 gallon is 36" long, not 48", but 48" sounds better actually for a adult.

BPs like to stretch out more than they like to climb. This can be different within the species, but this is generally true. My BP has space and items to climb all over and what does he do most of the time? Mostly just stretches out and sits there for a couple of hours and then goes back into his hides.

What's your purpose of coming on a forum for help and then completely disregarding any and all advice given?

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

oops, meant 40 gallon is 36" long, not 48", but 48" sounds better actually for a adult.

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In inches: mine is 23,6 long and yours is 36, mine is 31,5 deep and yours is 18, mine is 40 high and yours is 18. So you beat me in one point which is length and i beat you in 2 points depth and height and you are saying that your enclosure seemed the perfect size. Well, after doing this comparision my enclosure seems also to be the perfect size.

This is not a cage measuring contest. As I said, you can get both height and length, but it IS important you provide length. That is why custom cages exist. Maybe a 4x2x3 would work better for you, but it is very important you provide them the opportunity to stretch out.

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Originally Posted by Starscream

This is not a cage measuring contest. As I said, you can get both height and length, but it IS important you provide length. That is why custom cages exist. Maybe a 4x2x3 would work better for you, but it is very important you provide them the opportunity to stretch out.

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Pretty much this. As you note, there is evidence that ball pythons do indeed climb a limited amount in a wild setting. Ball pythons have been found in low-lying branches and foliage, but it is not their predominant trait. If you had started this thread with something like: "I want to make my enclosure 2-3' high and give my ball python more room to climb", you would have received a much different reaction from myself and others here. Perhaps some stating you don' need the height, but still overall supportive. The problem is you are sacrificing length for height and your length (more specifically floor space) is pretty small for a a ball python. I am of the opinion that 4' is best for ball pythons, but 3' is probably fine for smaller specimens. I would still rather see 4', but 3' is probably acceptable.

To put this in perspective for you and to be complete, even if it were a very arboreal snake like a green tree python or jungle carpet python, 2' in length / width would still be insufficient. I know some people keep them in that, but they really should be in something at least 3' x 2' (L x W) x 2-3' high. Greg Maxwell himself suggests 3' x 2' x 2' caging for green tree pythons and notes 4' long is even better. Most experienced keepers note that additional height is indeed beneficial to these snakes, but floor space is even more so.

To be fair, your enclosure is 23.6" x 31.5" (per your measurements with the "addition") and a 40 gallon breeder is 36" x 18" typically. Thus, your cage has ~744 sq. inches of floor space while the 40 gallon breeder has 648 sq. inches of floor space, so you could argue you are winning out there. Additionally for comparison, an IRIS CB-70 (37 qt tub) is 33.5" x 17.8" or 596 sq. inches of floor space. I have to admit that really, if people are going to critique this guy's enclosure, then we should be critiquing breeders/keepers with snakes in CB-70 (or equivalent) tubs as well. I realize this is perhaps outside the scope of this particular discussion, but I have noticed, in general, people tend to be pretty OK with keeping adult ball pythons in tubs.

However, for a 4.5" ball python, as others have noted, I would really like to see something closer to 3-4' x 2-2.5', which would give you a minimum 864+ sq. inches of floor space. This, in my personal opinion, is the minimum enclosure size for an adult ball python.

Pictures are indeed worth 1000 words. If you don't think a ball python will be enriched by having a longer setup, I offer this (4 foot long by 2 foot wide by 15 inches high enclosure)

https://i.imgur.com/fHYULKY.jpg

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Originally Posted by Dutti

The size of the cage is not small. If i just turned it around everybody would say its big enough. Its that the height is more than the lenght. I doubt that someone else has such a cage. Now read please this thread and you will see that many of those experienced keepers don,t provide their BP,s with half or even 30 % of the height which i gave my BP to climb. Tell them please to consider rehoming their snakes: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...closure-height

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The reason others dont have this cage is because the dimensions of it arent designed for a BP in mind. Something like the dimensions you have would be for a male GTP but again, even then i would prefer at least 3 feet of length.

And most dont provide 3 feet of height simply because for a BP, it's not needed. They arent boas and climb up into tree tops to perch and hunt. Sure they enjoy some height but the point wasnt that you were giving too much height, it was you werent providing enough floor space while trying to justify it with the added height.

It's your BP and your cage but just like your boa thread, you ask for advice and then try and argue the point when given said advice. I honestly dont know why i even chimed in on this thread as i should have learned from the boa thread lol. Guess i'm a glutton for punishment.

And yes they do like to stretch out. Here is Dottie hanging out. This her on a typical night. She does climb on her shelf but for the most part, she likes to sprawl out on the floor of the cage.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...055bcba2_h.jpg

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Originally Posted by SDA

Pictures are indeed worth 1000 words. If you don't think a ball python will be enriched by having a longer setup, I offer this (4 foot long by 2 foot wide by 15 inches high enclosure)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/fHYULKY.jpg

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Again, i beat you on 2 points (height and width) and you beat me on one point längth. My BP won,t have the same space to stretch himself on the ground as yours, and yours won't have the height to climb and stretch himself to the above as mine. When I finish the setup I could post a photo of him climbing and happy to tease you with it

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

And yes they do like to stretch out. Here is Dottie hanging out. This her on a typical night. She does climb on her shelf but for the most part, she likes to sprawl out on the floor of the cage.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...055bcba2_h.jpg

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we have discussed this in an another thread and found out that there is a big difference between males and females BP,s. While females (like yours) almost don't climb and remain on the floor, males ( like mine) are semi-arboreal snakes that climb a lot. Obviously that your experience is with a female BP and mine is with a male BP, and this why we have different experiences.. Here is the link for that thread and you can see in it a photo of mine hanging from a perch and hunting a live rat like a semi arboreal snake https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...arboreal-snake

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Originally Posted by Dutti

Again, i beat you on 2 points (height and width) and you beat me on one point längth. My BP won,t have the same space to stretch himself on the ground as yours, and yours won't have the height to climb and stretch himself to the above as mine. When I finish the setup I could post a photo of him climbing and happy to tease you with it

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I had thought I covered this in my above post, but perhaps my description needs work. Either way, this "1 point vs 2 points" is not a valid comparison. His floor space is 1152 sq. inches and your floor space is again 744 sq. inches (a roughly 35% difference). Volumetrically a 48" x 24" x 15" is 17,280 cubic inches and your enclosure (2' x 2.62' 3.30') is ~29,880 cubic inches (43% difference), which I presume is at the core of your argument. However, the 48" x 24" has more usable space. The 48" x 24" floor is pretty much all usable space, where height, even in carefully thought out enclosures with lots of branches is less usable. If you are lucky, you can maybe utilize 50% of that additional volume. If you utilize the "hypotenuse" of your cage and give it a ~3.8' branch, you can increase the space for the snake to "stretch" out, but for a larger snake this is less ideal than a ground area as effort must be taken for the snake to maintain it's position. You can utilize ledges to help improve this, but your usable space and "stretchable" length is still limited.

This the the reason experienced keepers recommend longer setups for arboreal and terrestrial species as I mentioned previously. They understand the utilization of space.

Your 2 long, 2,62 deep, 3,30 high is actually a pretty nice enclosure for a variety of reptile species, but not ideal for most boids I can think of off the top of my head. Perhaps a male GTP (green tree python) or ATB (amazon tree boa). It would make a killer gecko setup though.

Just wanted to add too that nobody is arguing your setup is "too high"- the more height the better, go for it! But ball pythons require enough floor space so they're not curled up on the floor without room to stretch out horizontally, if they want to.

Sure they climb, but they don't climb and perch 99.9% of the time. They need the horizontal space to travel on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Regius_049

I had thought I covered this in my above post, but perhaps my description needs work. Either way, this "1 point vs 2 points" is not a valid comparison. His floor space is 1152 sq. inches and your floor space is again 744 sq. inches (a roughly 35% difference). Volumetrically a 48" x 24" x 15" is 17,280 cubic inches and your enclosure (2' x 2.62' 3.30') is ~29,880 cubic inches (43% difference), which I presume is at the core of your argument. However, the 48" x 24" has more usable space. The 48" x 24" floor is pretty much all usable space, where height, even in carefully thought out enclosures with lots of branches is less usable. If you are lucky, you can maybe utilize 50% of that additional volume. If you utilize the "hypotenuse" of your cage and give it a ~3.8' branch, you can increase the space for the snake to "stretch" out, but for a larger snake this is less ideal than a ground area as effort must be taken for the snake to maintain it's position. You can utilize ledges to help improve this, but your usable space and "stretchable" length is still limited.

This the the reason experienced keepers recommend longer setups for arboreal and terrestrial species as I mentioned previously. They understand the utilization of space.

Your 2 long, 2,62 deep, 3,30 high is actually a pretty nice enclosure for a variety of reptile species, but not ideal for most boids I can think of off the top of my head. Perhaps a male GTP (green tree python) or ATB (amazon tree boa). It would make a killer gecko setup though.

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In addition to the many branches that I will use to utilize the height, I will install a big board(21x14 inches)in which my BP would lay and stretch on, so he won't only just climb and perch like a GTP. He will have an additional floor space above.

I love it when someone asks for advise or thoughts and then does not listen to the advise given. Even when its given by very expierenced people.

No offense to you Dutti, but not considering the answers that the experts on this forum give seems to be a trend with you... Why are you asking questions and giving information if you don't seem to want their advice??

Also, do a quick google search and you will find that ball pythons are a terrestrial species. They spend most of their lives underground in abandoned rodent burrows, or hidden under foliage waiting for their next meal.

It's not in their nature to climb up to a "floor space", and I simply don't understand why you would insist on keeping such an animal in an enclosure that is obviously meant for an arboreal animal!

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Originally Posted by Joci

No offense to you Dutti, but not considering the answers that the experts on this forum give seems to be a trend with you... Why are you asking questions and giving information if you don't seem to want their advice??

Also, do a quick google search and you will find that ball pythons are a terrestrial species. They spend most of their lives underground in abandoned rodent burrows, or hidden under foliage waiting for their next meal.

It's not in their nature to climb up to a "floor space", and I simply don't understand why you would insist on keeping such an animal in an enclosure that is obviously meant for an arboreal animal!

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You are talking like he is not going to have any floor space at all. Of course he will have a hide, his water bowl and his heating source all on the floor and an additional space will remain also. Every animal is differant. If i put him for example in a glass tank (like the photo of SDA) no matter how big the floor space is, most likely that he will go off food because he does not like to be seen a lot. The most important indication if a BP is happy and secure is that he eats regulary and do not go off food. All the talk about utilizing the height and istalling a board and branches is only meant when he sometimes get active at night so he will have enough space to move.

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Originally Posted by Dutti

You are talking like he is not going to have any floor space at all. Of course he will have a hide, his water bowl and his heating source all on the floor and an additional space will remain also. Every animal is differant. If i put him for example in a glass tank (like the photo of SDA) no matter how big the floor space is, most likely that he will go off food because he does not like to be seen a lot. The most important indication if a BP is happy and secure is that he eats regulary and do not go off food. All the talk about utilizing the height and istalling a board and branches is only meant when he sometimes get active at night so he will have enough space to move.

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Actually that is wrong. They go off feed during breed season too a lot of time. My female quit eating for 6 months. Before that she ate like a horse and after that she ate like a horse. BPs more or less just regulate their own food intake.

And you said your BP would go off food if he is seen a lot. Well guess what chief, putting him in a 2x2 floor space cage crammed with a cool and warm hide and water bowl and then giving it 3 feet of branches with a platform to sit on is about the most open you can get.

And i dont know about you but my 4.5 foot BP uses large RB hides which are about 12x9 inches and she fits tight in them. 2 of those combined with a large water bowl like i said above is going to leave pretty much no room on the floor so you are basically forcing the BP to go arboreal or sit squished up and double backed on itself in a little 2x2 box.

You need to do what is best for the snake, not what you feel is best and considering 99% of the people are trying to tell you you need to go with more floor space and the fact the thousands of people who have kept BPs for years and years and years also say they need floor space, you still ignore it and think your snake is some unique snowflake that needs 3 feet of height and 2x2 floor space. You have the same thought about your boa being 1.5 years old and like 5 feet or something crazy like that and eating large rats. I'm sorry to inform you but you dont have unique snakes, you just have snakes that you have grossly pigeonholed into what your idea of them should be. Listen to the folks who have had snakes longer than you have probably been alive. They know what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Actually that is wrong. They go off feed during breed season too a lot of time. My female quit eating for 6 months. Before that she ate like a horse and after that she ate like a horse. BPs more or less just regulate their own food intake.

And you said your BP would go off food if he is seen a lot. Well guess what chief, putting him in a 2x2 floor space cage crammed with a cool and warm hide and water bowl and then giving it 3 feet of branches with a platform to sit on is about the most open you can get.

And i dont know about you but my 4.5 foot BP uses large RB hides which are about 12x9 inches and she fits tight in them. 2 of those combined with a large water bowl like i said above is going to leave pretty much no room on the floor so you are basically forcing the BP to go arboreal or sit squished up and double backed on itself in a little 2x2 box.

You need to do what is best for the snake, not what you feel is best and considering 99% of the people are trying to tell you you need to go with more floor space and the fact the thousands of people who have kept BPs for years and years and years also say they need floor space, you still ignore it and think your snake is some unique snowflake that needs 3 feet of height and 2x2 floor space. You have the same thought about your boa being 1.5 years old and like 5 feet or something crazy like that and eating large rats. I'm sorry to inform you but you dont have unique snakes, you just have snakes that you have grossly pigeonholed into what your idea of them should be. Listen to the folks who have had snakes longer than you have probably been alive. They know what they are talking about.

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The floor space is 2x2,60 and you are making it smaller. And he will have only one cool hide. If he wants to use the belly heat, he does not need a hide. It won,t be that full, the hide size is 11x10 inches. And the water bowl is not that large, it is designed only for drinking not soaking 8x6,6 inches. By the way, my boa got a very big enclosure size in feet: 7,20 long, 2,60 deep, 4,60 high because i excpect him to reach the 10 feet at least as adult. He is 17 months old now and eating large rats. This is his latest feeding video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oNLd45lb2A

I have yet to see a 10' BCI. The largest boas are BCC and Peruvians to be exact. And to reach those lengths, you are looking at around a 10+ year old snake.

Basically like i said before, you just power fed him to that size in that short of time. Even continued power feeding wont make them reach 10'.

But back to the BP. You say he is shy and doesnt like to be seen but you are denying him a warm side hide...so here we go again with you imposing your power on the snake. All BPs should have a warm and cool hide unless they are in a rack in which case, the rack itself acts like a giant hide.

And you made it small, i forgot the 6 inches so we are looking at a 2x2.6 foot floor. 6 inches isnt going to mean squat on that small of a footprint. Do the snake a favor and flip the cage on its side so he has a 3x2.6x2 cage and make him happy.

And the point to the feeding video? Not really amazing as i have a 7'+ retic who eats 2XL guinea pigs and probably piglets if i let him lol. I still am sticking by my comment of that boa is being power fed or its age is way off. Thats the problem with a lot of people, they are in a hurry to grow their snakes to these huge sizes and then brag about it. You are doing nothing but showing your inexperience and damaging the animal.

Sorry about the rant and sounding like a jerk but your care for your snakes just rubs me the wrong way to no end.

I spend a lot of time on the boa FB pages and i see so many people with very good animals say they feel their animals are underfed or small. Me as well as other people on the boards have to let them know their animals are in perfect shape. The problem isnt their animal, its that 90% of the boas you see nowadays are overweight and overfed/powerfed so it has almost become the norm. I kind of blame it on some breeders to an extent but i also blame the industy. To make the big cash and stay on top of the morph market, breeders have to grow their snakes quick so they can breed quick so they can be the first to reap the highest cash rewards on said morph. Then once the guys who raise their boas correctly reach the breeding of said morph, the power feeding breeders move on to the next up and coming morph and rinse and repeat. They dont care about the long term welfare of the animal, they care about the bottom line and how much cash they can milk out of it. I also see that from guys who brag about having a huge boa that is only a couple years old etc. I've also noticed some people buy burms, retics and anacondas to seem cool and then dont reaize how big they get and once they get too big, they try and rehome them....surprise, zoos no longer have room to take all those snakes and either do shelters....

On the flip side, you almost never see this with BCC or local stuff. Most of that stuff is slow grown and fed very conservatively so you see these 4 year old BCCs on small rats and only about 4' long.

Anyways, I'm done ranting haha. just had to get that off my chest as i was just talking to a gal a few nights ago about her boa that she felt was skinny and underfed and it actually looked in awesome shape.

To add for example, look at Scoria Boas. The only guy doing those was Henry Poirun in Canada and he was selling pairs for like 25k. Now there are a lot of people in the states breeding them as well morphs of them and they have dropped to 7k or so. Heck he has dropped them down to 19.5k for a pair now. Same thing with pied BPs. I saw a sheet someone posted from a well known breeder from years ago and pieds were going for 10k. Now you can get pied BPs for 250-400.

Now i just need people to make super dwarf pied retics. I talked to a few people who had them in the works but havent heard anything. I am guessing they are going to be around 5k+ mark since a mainland pied is going for 1500-2k. What i wouldnt give to get my hands on a super dwarf pied retic :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I have yet to see a 10' BCI. The largest boas are BCC and Peruvians to be exact. And to reach those lengths, you are looking at around a 10+ year old snake.

Basically like i said before, you just power fed him to that size in that short of time. Even continued power feeding wont make them reach 10'.

But back to the BP. You say he is shy and doesnt like to be seen but you are denying him a warm side hide...so here we go again with you imposing your power on the snake. All BPs should have a warm and cool hide unless they are in a rack in which case, the rack itself acts like a giant hide.

And you made it small, i forgot the 6 inches so we are looking at a 2x2.6 foot floor. 6 inches isnt going to mean squat on that small of a footprint. Do the snake a favor and flip the cage on its side so he has a 3x2.6x2 cage and make him happy.

And the point to the feeding video? Not really amazing as i have a 7'+ retic who eats 2XL guinea pigs and probably piglets if i let him lol. I still am sticking by my comment of that boa is being power fed or its age is way off. Thats the problem with a lot of people, they are in a hurry to grow their snakes to these huge sizes and then brag about it. You are doing nothing but showing your inexperience and damaging the animal.

Sorry about the rant and sounding like a jerk but your care for your snakes just rubs me the wrong way to no end.

I spend a lot of time on the boa FB pages and i see so many people with very good animals say they feel their animals are underfed or small. Me as well as other people on the boards have to let them know their animals are in perfect shape. The problem isnt their animal, its that 90% of the boas you see nowadays are overweight and overfed/powerfed so it has almost become the norm. I kind of blame it on some breeders to an extent but i also blame the industy. To make the big cash and stay on top of the morph market, breeders have to grow their snakes quick so they can breed quick so they can be the first to reap the highest cash rewards on said morph. Then once the guys who raise their boas correctly reach the breeding of said morph, the power feeding breeders move on to the next up and coming morph and rinse and repeat. They dont care about the long term welfare of the animal, they care about the bottom line and how much cash they can milk out of it. I also see that from guys who brag about having a huge boa that is only a couple years old etc. I've also noticed some people buy burms, retics and anacondas to seem cool and then dont reaize how big they get and once they get too big, they try and rehome them....surprise, zoos no longer have room to take all those snakes and either do shelters....

On the flip side, you almost never see this with BCC or local stuff. Most of that stuff is slow grown and fed very conservatively so you see these 4 year old BCCs on small rats and only about 4' long.

Anyways, I'm done ranting haha. just had to get that off my chest as i was just talking to a gal a few nights ago about her boa that she felt was skinny and underfed and it actually looked in awesome shape.

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That the age of the boa is way off you don,t have to repeat this argument. You can,t own a boa where i live without having identification papers. He is registered. I have him since he was a month old. I told you before that i was there when he was born. So if you still have doubts its your problem. I will post a photo of him in my hand when i bought him, he was a month old. Suddenly you are comparing retic with boa. And you feed frozen. Its not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet.
[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/25qf4fn.jpg[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by Dutti

I am wondering if this enclosure size would be enough for him forever or i will have to upgrade in the future?

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You asked, we all said no but you decided to contradict time and again experienced advice and justify your incorrect enclosure even though we offered evidence as to why this enclosure is bad for your snake.
It is disappointing to read how resistant you are to change. Your snake is more important than your stubbornness, I had to learn that as well and I hope you do and get things fixed for his sake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SDA

You asked, we all said no but you decided to contradict time and again experienced advice and justify your incorrect enclosure even though we offered evidence as to why this enclosure is bad for your snake.
It is disappointing to read how resistant you are to change. Your snake is more important than your stubbornness, I had to learn that as well and I hope you do and get things fixed for his sake.

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Thank you for your advice. I advice you to increase the height for your snake. 15 inches height is insufficient. You should give your snake a chance to climb specially if it was a male. After Regius_49 did the calculation, he found out that your enclosure 48" x 24" x 15" is 17,280 cubic inches and my enclosure (2' x 2.62' 3.30') is ~29,880 cubic inches (43% difference) for me . So i have much more space than yours, even though floor space is more important. I would prefer my enclosure over yours because my BP won,t be happy in a glass tank. Even my floor space is bigger than a 40 breeder tank. mine is 744 sq and a 40 breeder tank is 648 sq. Additionally for comparison, an IRIS CB-70 (37 qt tub) is 33.5" x 17.8" or 596 sq. inches of floor space. I have quoted these numbers from Regius_49.

This isn't the first time you've made a thread and blatantly ignored and fought against advice given to you. If you're so convinced you're doing the right thing and confident in your decision, why waste everyone's time? Clearly you're miles ahead of us in husbandry and don't need or want anyone's input. I guess everyone was wrong to question your judgement since you have it all figured out right.

You don't need our help. Your ego is plenty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dutti

After Regius_49 did the calculation, he found out that your enclosure 48" x 24" x 15" is 17,280 cubic inches and my enclosure (2' x 2.62' 3.30') is ~29,880 cubic inches (43% difference) for me . So i have much more space than yours, even though floor space is more important. I would prefer my enclosure over yours because my BP won,t be happy in a glass tank. Even my floor space is bigger than a 40 breeder tank. mine is 744 sq and a 40 breeder tank is 648 sq. Additionally for comparison, an IRIS CB-70 (37 qt tub) is 33.5" x 17.8" or 596 sq. inches of floor space. I have quoted these numbers from Regius_49.

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As foolish as I am likely being, I feel I should clarify a few things since I am being quoted:

1. Even though your tank has 43% larger volume than a 48" x 24" x 15" enclosure, your tank has less usable space and does not have as great a single dimension. Since volume is not directly usable by the snake beyond a certain threshold, lets go back to sq. inches as maybe that was a better way of putting this. While some "air" space is good for mobility and convenience, a snake can't lay on it. His tank has 1152 sq. inches and yours has 744 sq. inches (again). If we add in your 21" x 14" board and branches we would get approximately 1138. So the 48"x 24" x 15" is a little bigger, but not by much, enough that I could call them more or less even. However, he has a flat 48" area (or ~54" diagonally) and all level, flat surfaces. So to say your tank has "more space" is objectively true, but again, a good deal of it is wasted as is the unavoidable caveat with most taller / conventionally arboreal style setups.

2. The enclosure SDA posted is a plastic PVC enclosure from reptile basics, not a glass tank. This style of enclosure is, in my opinion, the current best available enclosure for captive snakes. They are lighter, insulate better than glass, have front-open doors, and are already opaque.

As I have said before, the ideal enclosure for a ball python is probably around 4' x 2-2.5' x 1-2'. If I had unlimited space, I would probably do 4' x 2.5' x 2', or larger for abnormally large females (I have seen a few push 6kg). The 4' x 2-2.5' is obvious, but height is more subjective. I prefer height for two major reasons: (1) This one is mainly for me; I don't like dealing with 12" enclosures because the door opening is too small for manipulating the cage and it's contents. (2) When a ball python swallows, most of the time, you will notice them raise up the front 1/4" of their body to aid in swallowing (presumably to let gravity assist them in consuming their prey item). A 6" tub is not high enough for this (assuming an adult snake). Clearly they can consume prey in a 6" tub, but I feel their is a quality of life improves with taller cages. Like I said, before, I am not opposed to the addition of more height beyond this (though controlling heat and humidity become more complicated the taller you get), but under no circumstances would I sacrifice length and floor space for height regardless of ball python gender or size. This is effectively what you are doing. If you are so concerned about enriching your snake's environment, why not give it a 4' x 2' x 3'?

It seems telling that some of the most experienced arboreal snake keepers in the world still recommend a 3-4' x 1.5-2' x 2' cage. Even for snakes that are arboreal by nature, and don't just temporarily adopt the title for hunting purposes, these are the dimensions they have come up with. I have given you some reasons already, such as usable space, but there is also the thermal gradient to consider. I would type it out but it would be easier just to quote Maxwell on green tree python caging:

"Cages should be approximately 24 inches tall, 18 to 24 inches deep, and 30 to 40 inches long. This size and shape allows the establishment of a thermal gradient, which should be about 82 to 88 degrees. A horizontal aspect makes this easy; therefore cages should be oriented horizontally rather than vertically. While this may seem counter-intuitive for an arboreal species, the fact is that most chondros will use the highest perch in a cage regardless of temperature. In a tall, narrow cage the highest perch will also be the warmest, and the animal will choose height over thermal preference. Avoid small cages such as the common 24-inch cube; these are not large enough to provide an adequate thermal gradient"

In regards to glass tanks, I think glass tanks are less ideal as in my person experience, a variety of snake species seem to feel less secure in them and displayed increased aggressive behavior when given (essentially) identical furnishings, temperatures, and humidity. However, this is not to say people have not successfully kept snakes in them for years though and they can be relatively easily modified to increase the feeling of security by using black contact paper to "black out" the sides and back of the tank. Glass aquarium style enclosures used to be the standard for decades.

In short, your cage is not "better" than a 48" x 24" x 15" to really anyone experienced with keeping boid snakes and it would be unequivocally better if you turned your enclosure on it's side. If you wanted to argue a 4' x 2' x 2-3' cage, was an improvement on the proposed 4' x 2' x 15", you would have some ground to stand on. However, to be complete, a 2' x 2.62' 3.30' is again arguably better than a standard 40 gallon breeder assuming 36" x 18" x 16" (though 31.5" is still cutting it pretty close for a good thermal gradient) and definitely better than the conventional 32-41 qt. tubs ball pythons are conventionally kept it. If we lambast him for his cage, we should really have the same standard for adult ball pythons in these tubs. Though I suspect as this point, it is more your attitude that is drawing ire and not your enclosure.

:imslow: :psychotic :popcorn:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dutti

That the age of the boa is way off you don,t have to repeat this argument. You can,t own a boa where i live without having identification papers. He is registered. I have him since he was a month old. I told you before that i was there when he was born. So if you still have doubts its your problem. I will post a photo of him in my hand when i bought him, he was a month old. Suddenly you are comparing retic with boa. And you feed frozen. Its not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet.
[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/25qf4fn.jpg[/IMG]

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"It's not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet" With that comment alone, i rest my case on your snake knowledge. Maybe where you come from but in the states, i have never seen a 10 foot BCI. I have seen people claim on the boards they have a 10 foot BCI and show a pic but there is never anything to compare it to and people also tend to exaggerate. Said 10 foot snake put up against a measuring tape ends up being a 7 foot snake lol. Now i have seen 9-10' BCC but those were old snakes that the owners had for 10+ years

And where you live, you have to have ID papers for each snake? Where do you live and how do they register them? I mean is there a department of reptiles? Do you have to get a photo of them with weight and everything like a drivers license and then they are entered into a state/city/county database? That's wild.

And i wasnt comparing a retic to a boa. You linked a feeding video which really showed nothing other than a boa eating a rat. I was saying its not that impressive as i have seen snakes eat for the part 25 years and if i really want to watch a snake eat, i would watch my retic as he is 7' and cant eat some very impressive size meals. So i guess in a way i was comparing i guess but only through the point of eating.

And honestly it's not a problem for me as i know my snakes will live long healthy lives since i feed them correctly. I was more trying to help you so you dont have a dead boa in 5-10 years from fatty liver disease or a heart attack from it growing too fast and putting too much strain on its organs. The only problem is have if any is that you ask for advice and then when given the same answer from multiple people who have kept snakes for years, you argue the point and dont listen. Why even ask for advice then? It makes no sense lol.

And yes i feed FT. Honestly FT has a less chance of transferring parasites to the snake as freezing will kill most of them. With feeding live, you should take a fecal sample into your vet once a year for a float to be done. Plus with something as large as large rats or rabbits, they can pose a real threat to your snake if an accident does happen. Plus i couldnt imagine feeding live quail or chicks to my snakes so thats why i do FT. I give them rabbits, chicks, quails, rats. My retic gets all that plus guinea pigs and if he gets much larger, i will probably be ordering FT piglets from Monster Feeders lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

"It's not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet" With that comment alone, i rest my case on your snake knowledge. Maybe where you come from but in the states, i have never seen a 10 foot BCI. I have seen people claim on the boards they have a 10 foot BCI and show a pic but there is never anything to compare it to and people also tend to exaggerate. Said 10 foot snake put up against a measuring tape ends up being a 7 foot snake lol. Now i have seen 9-10' BCC but those were old snakes that the owners had for 10+ years

And where you live, you have to have ID papers for each snake? Where do you live and how do they register them? I mean is there a department of reptiles? Do you have to get a photo of them with weight and everything like a drivers license and then they are entered into a state/city/county database? That's wild.

And i wasnt comparing a retic to a boa. You linked a feeding video which really showed nothing other than a boa eating a rat. I was saying its not that impressive as i have seen snakes eat for the part 25 years and if i really want to watch a snake eat, i would watch my retic as he is 7' and cant eat some very impressive size meals. So i guess in a way i was comparing i guess but only through the point of eating.

And honestly it's not a problem for me as i know my snakes will live long healthy lives since i feed them correctly. I was more trying to help you so you dont have a dead boa in 5-10 years from fatty liver disease or a heart attack from it growing too fast and putting too much strain on its organs. The only problem is have if any is that you ask for advice and then when given the same answer from multiple people who have kept snakes for years, you argue the point and dont listen. Why even ask for advice then? It makes no sense lol.

And yes i feed FT. Honestly FT has a less chance of transferring parasites to the snake as freezing will kill most of them. With feeding live, you should take a fecal sample into your vet once a year for a float to be done. Plus with something as large as large rats or rabbits, they can pose a real threat to your snake if an accident does happen. Plus i couldnt imagine feeding live quail or chicks to my snakes so thats why i do FT. I give them rabbits, chicks, quails, rats. My retic gets all that plus guinea pigs and if he gets much larger, i will probably be ordering FT piglets from Monster Feeders lol.

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There is a department for animals in general. I'm not sure if dogs also get registered there or in a different department because I don't own dogs. But snakes are divided according to their kinds, some kinds are considered dangerous so they require registration and you get an approval letter to own them from the department and they get entered into a state/city/county database. In order to get the approval letter, the snake must have a kind of a birth certificate where it's kind and date of birth is registered. No photos are required. Other kinds of snakes like ball pythons don't have to be registered but they must have a birth certificate as a proof of origin. And some other kinds don't need even a birth certificate like corn snakes. The kinds that considered highly endangered in the wild like Dumeril boa must be registered in a different department with a photo documentation and they are entered into a state/city/county data base. Every year photos of the snake must be made and get stamped by the department.

Dumerils considered dangerous?? Lol my dumerils is the most laid back of any of my snakes hands down. She will literally lay on me in bed while I watch a movie and pretty much never move haha.

That's insane. All those hoops to jump through. Where I live, the only reptiles that cant be owned are crocodilea, venomous snakes and crocodile and water monitors. Funny though, you can own Gila and Beaded lizards which are the only venomous lizards but cant own venomous snakes. And to own any of ok said stuff, you don't need to register anything. That's why I'm sooo close to pulling the trigger on a gila monster. Just need to round up the $1000-1100 for one and still keep flipping the coin on that or another suriname or Peruvian BCC. Cant make up my mind :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Dumerils considered dangerous?? Lol my dumerils is the most laid back of any of my snakes hands down. She will literally lay on me in bed while I watch a movie and pretty much never move haha.

That's insane. All those hoops to jump through. Where I live, the only reptiles that cant be owned are crocodilea, venomous snakes and crocodile and water monitors. Funny though, you can own Gila and Beaded lizards which are the only venomous lizards but cant own venomous snakes. And to own any of ok said stuff, you don't need to register anything. That's why I'm sooo close to pulling the trigger on a gila monster. Just need to round up the $1000-1100 for one and still keep flipping the coin on that or another suriname or Peruvian BCC. Cant make up my mind :(

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You didn't read carefully what I wrote or misunderstood. Dumerils are not considered dangerous. They are endangered in the wild, the wild population of the snake is in danger. Such animals must be registered at the department for the protection of nature with photo documentation. Where I live Boa Constrictors are considered dangerous and must be registered. Also big snakes burms, retics, anacondas.