Freaking out!! Fire to Normal makes white snake?!!

We cut our first clutch of the year tonight. Fire to normal. I was afraid to cut one of the eggs because it had looked odd when we candled it. Moved but no pattern.
Well lo and behold the snake is white!!!! How the stink can that be?!

Pics of both parents would ne great. also one of the baby

Pics pics pics pics

Parents and babies

EDIT: my guess is incubation issue or mom is a lower quality fire/sulfur/

What day are your eggs on?
Color and pattern are the last bits to develop.

And it's possible that your normal is actually a low quality fire. lol

Today was day 59. I'll get some pics posted.

No mystery involved. Both parents are fires.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

No mystery involved. Both parents are fires.

---

Agreed...but still wanna see some pics

Sent from my ADR6410LRA using Tapatalk 2

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/...ps10cf702c.jpg


http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/...pse126476b.jpg Mother "Normal"

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/...pscdf80a29.jpg Father - Fire

Mom definitly doesnt look like a Fire.

Now thats a head scratcher.... Next year throw a Vanilla male to her and see what happens


Http://www.BCBallPythons.com
Http://www.facebook.com/bcballpythons

Look up "null phenomenon". I'm not quite sure how it works, but I think you will only get one gender of snakes in that clutch. It has happened a few times. Phantom x normal and producing super phantoms. Mojo x bumblebee producing super mojos. Kinda weird. I haven't heard of what happens when you breed the null phenom, but it's still cool :gj:

Here ya go: http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...henomenon.html

Hmm, well that sure is interesting. Mom doesn't look fire-ish.

leucistics are naturally occuring normal to normal just really rare much like albinos. It is the simple explanation.

http://astronomologer.com/wp-content...hite-raven.jpg

:D

it will be much clearer with pics when they are all out, and with pics after 1st shed. Eye color and the specific tone of white could help to solve this puzzle. I wouldnt be surprised if the eyes turn out to be blue. Black eyes would be even more interesting.

maybe its not a fire but something else? could it be something else?

in the blue eye leucistic-complex this happens, i mean is done, all the time. something like lesser x het russo could look quite similar to this. or if its really a fire, maybe this is a different gene that behaves similar to some of the blue eye lucy stuff, just in the gene complex with fire and sulfur.

about the strange "null phenomenon", i need a mechanism how its supposed to happen. for blue eye lucys, meaning the above mentioned example of super phantoms or super mojaves popping up seemingly out of nowhere, ill go with genes like het russo as an explanation. they seemingly do just that.

UV light to check for pattern in the fluorescence is also something to consider later on.


EDIT: In response to kitedemon: Yes, i mean, basically we have genes like that in BPs. Known ones, het russo and a few others. practically recessive stuff that makes lucys. the question will be what exactly it is compatible with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

Look up "null phenomenon". I'm not quite sure how it works, but I think you will only get one gender of snakes in that clutch. It has happened a few times. Phantom x normal and producing super phantoms. Mojo x bumblebee producing super mojos. Kinda weird. I haven't heard of what happens when you breed the null phenom, but it's still cool :gj:

Here ya go: http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...henomenon.html

---

Also a possibility


Http://www.BCBallPythons.com
Http://www.facebook.com/bcballpythons

What in the wworld of ball pythons lol. Can't wait to see the out of the eggs this is interesting.

The mom had kicked this egg out. It is from an 11 egg clutch. Seems to be if it were genetic there would be more than one in that many eggs!

Looking at the pic on my phone so it's small, but to me that simply looks like a clear belly and the bottom of a snakes head?

As though the snake is upside down

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

Look up "null phenomenon". I'm not quite sure how it works, but I think you will only get one gender of snakes in that clutch.

---

Just as a small clarification, "null" phenomenon does not bias the clutch to one gender or another. It is acts of parthenogenesis that are typically recognized by one gender morph clutches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurtilein

about the strange "null phenomenon", i need a mechanism how its supposed to happen.

---

In the link Hooblah posted there is a post by me that has a second link which explains the "null" phenomenon. The "mechanism" is really very simple; a second copy of the gene (in this case the WT copy) is simply missing, by way of any of a number of means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurtilein

for blue eye lucys, meaning the above mentioned example of super phantoms or super mojaves popping up seemingly out of nowhere, ill go with genes like het russo as an explanation. they seemingly do just that.

---

Except that Russos are quite distinct and not likely to be mistaken for WT animals. And Russo x Phantom looks nothing like a SuperPhantom.

That and the same phenomenon has also been seen with SuperCinny/SuperBlack and it is not like there are cryptic alleles of those out there...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Looking at the pic on my phone so it's small, but to me that simply looks like a clear belly and the bottom of a snakes head?

As though the snake is upside down

---

Thats what I thought too. Looks like the baby is upside down on my phone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BHReptiles

Thats what I thought too. Looks like the baby is upside down on my phone.

---

It is in that pic. Here's a different one. http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1aec64f1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by asplundii

In the link Hooblah posted there is a post by me that has a second link which explains the "null" phenomenon. The "mechanism" is really very simple; a second copy of the gene (in this case the WT copy) is simply missing, by way of any of a number of means.

---

Here. Save you the time having to hunt it down:

http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...tml#post769750

Hmmm very interesting to see! Mom really does look normal.. I'll be following this one!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Mom looks a LOT like my dinker female. I might have to put my fire male with her next year!

I would love to see the pic of it when it's out of the egg! Do you have a pic of the dame completely exposed (head to tail)?

Can the null phenomenon happen with just the male genes contributing? Most parthenogenesis involves the female genes.

Look at Mom's head: that's a lot of blushing. I bet she's carrying a fire gene allele.

Anyway, you should definitely repeat this pairing. It's for SCIENCE.

- - - Updated - - -

ps. Congratulations on winning the random white snake lottery!

Yea, she must carry something compatible with fire. Isn't the lemonback the same allele? I am sure there are others and mom sure had a surprise up her sleeve. Can't wait to see these little ones out!

I can't wait to see what happens when you eventually breed that white baby.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

hopefully the white ones a male... back to mommy he can go! Plus you can breed it to other females then and see what surprises come out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loonunit

Can the null phenomenon happen with just the male genes contributing? Most parthenogenesis involves the female genes.

---

"Null" phenomenon and parthenogenesis are wholly unrelated and have nothing to do with one another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elbee

Yea, she must carry something compatible with fire.

---

No necessarily

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elbee

Isn't the lemonback the same allele?

---

Yes, it is. But it is not at all a subtle morph that could ever be mistaken for a WT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elbee

I am sure there are others

---

Obviously there are: Disco and Vanilla and RDR DesertLemon and Sulphur and Flame Hypo and Lucifer and Eraserhead and... But here is the thing, there is an absolute trend line these morphs follow and the more normal they look the less they react with Fire. So if that female is some type of "cryptic" BlkEL allele then she would not produce a white snake when bred to a Fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

I can't wait to see what happens when you eventually breed that white baby.

---

Fires and normals

Very interesting. Can't wait to see how things progress with this.

Then again, there is always the 1,000,000 to 1 shot both parents were het pied and no one knew that, right?

What a mystery! And I believe you would have had to pick me up off the floor when I cut that egg.

I cannot wait to see the rest of the clutch and this mysterious baby after they hatch and shed.

Gale

[IMG]http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/...ps902f5e9d.jpg[/IMG]
Here is a full body pic of mom

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/...psa62d4672.jpg
And a shot of the baby poking his nose out of the egg this morning!

Crazy!! Can't wait to see the little guy out of the egg!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

Then again, there is always the 1,000,000 to 1 shot both parents were het pied and no one knew that, right?

---

It has a white head, it would have to be a lesser pied or something like that and neither sire nor damn is so I don't see that being possible.

I love surprises :snake:

mommy looks like my male i rescued :D

Subscribed :gj:

If the baby is a male I would not breed it back to mom. If it's not a fluke a bunch of BEL(white) babies will not show whats going on.
I would redo the pairing next year and see if you get any more. I would breed the little mistery to a YB and see what happens.

Very cool! Can't wait to see more!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

It has a white head, it would have to be a lesser pied or something like that and neither sire nor damn is so I don't see that being possible.

I love surprises :snake:

---

Well, don't other pieds sometimes have white heads? I mean, isn't it possible it has a few teeny tiny pied spots we can't see? :wuv:

I think this is the coolest mystery I've seen in a while now. I'm so excited to see what the future of the clutch holds.

Gale

This is so cool though! I think it has black eyes! Has it emerged any more?

[IMG]http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4ffe626b.jpg[/IMG]

Here is the little guy out of the egg. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like he/she has absorbed all of the yoke. I hope he makes it.

Whoah. He has those orange spots on his back.. def. looks superfire to me. I hope he does okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Capray

Whoah. He has those orange spots on his back.. def. looks superfire to me. I hope he does okay.

---

I agree with the superfire guess. Orange spotting.....looks like superfire to me. How crazy is that!? Dam looks completely normal from the pics.

I hope the little one does well!

So, the little guy's umbilicus was tied in a knot. We had to tie it off below the knot, and cut it. We tried to suck the yolk into a syringe, and feed it to the baby, and I think we got some of it into him. We'll just have to wait and see now.

no need to try to feed it to him..... :O

First I have ever heard of someone doing that. Just wait for the little one to shed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

no need to try to feed it to him..... :O

First I have ever heard of someone doing that. Just wait for the little one to shed.

---

He may need to eat sooner since he didn't absorb his yolk.

Sent from my Samsung Note II using Tapatalk 2

Is he flicking his tongue

Sent from my ADR6410LRA using Tapatalk 2

subbed

Crossing my fingers for this little one

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2