Is Nix necessary?

[I-KandyReptiles]

Unless it is illegal to use in your area ... Like Canada, Europe, Australia and some US states... The list is growing. All pesticides should be used exactly as the instructions say. Making up instructions and testing them on your animals is likely not a good idea. Never forget you are dealing with a toxic chemical that can, will, and has, poisoned snakes, follow all instructions exactly.

When I contacted the sellers of PAM, they said they can ship to Canada. So it's illegal?

[kitedemon]

To the best of my knowledge it is restricted meaning you need a licence for it. It is not the manufacturers responsibility to follow local laws when the local zoo tried to bring it in it was impounded at the border. Many choose to try, sometimes it passes through unchecked that doesn't make it legal. Ask if it is impounded at the border if they will give a full refund.

treeboa did you never read the label? This is what I am taking about the instructions,

Before spraying, remove amphibians, water and any desirable or food arachnids or insects from the vicinity. Vapours will kill spiders and insects. Do not use within the vicinity of any arachnids or amphibians. Do not use until these specimens are removed to another location. Do not apply to heating devices or heating device covers. Do not allow reptile to breath vapors, Do not use in bare cages without substrate. Treated substrate/enclosure will kill any feed insects introduced for at least 2 weeks. Treat or feed any insectivores in a separate cage. Do not spray directly inion eyes, mouth or genitalia of pats. For direct application to tortoises only. Do not apply directly on snakes, lizards or
other reptiles.

PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENTS
HAZARDS TO HUMANS & DOMESTIC ANIMALS
CAUTION
Harmful if absorbed through skin. Causes moderate eye irritation. Avoid comact with skin, eyes or clothing. Wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling and before eating, drinking, chewing gum, or using tobacco. Vacate rooms after treatment and ventilate before reoccupying. Avoid contamination of f~d and foodstuffs. Do not allow
children or pets to contact treated areas until surfaces are dry..
FIRSTAID: Ifon skin orclothing: .Takeoffcontaminated clothing.•Rlnse skin immediately with plentyofwaterfor 15-20 minutes.•Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.
If In eyes: .Hold eye open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15-20 minutes.•Remove contact lenses, if present, after the first 5 minutes then continue rinsing eye. •Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.

Shampoo and pressurized areosol are not the same at all ingredients are the same the delivery different this alters the route of exposure and the hazards.

I am only suggesting to follow every precaution.

"Harmful if absorbed through skin" = wear gloves

"Avoid comact with skin, eyes or clothing." = tyvek? non absorbent, disposable, cheap. Might not be a bad idea.

"Vacate rooms after treatment and ventilate before reoccupying" = open window and put a fan in it for 30-45 min (10 air changes apx from general ventilation standards)

Do not allow reptile to breath vapours = remove all reptiles from the surrounding area where it is being sprayed. As it is vapours and they spread fast that is a large area fans allow faster and larger spreading so increased space. The safest would remove all the reptiles from the area.

This is straight from the label registered with the EPA. I am suggesting only what is on the label and instructions and it not be treated with such a casual attitude. It is being studied as a carcinogen (tests are in progress) and as an endocrine suppressor as well. The circumstantial evidence is adding up. I am advocating following the label as it sits nothing more. I get this same argument every time as well from people advocating something different than the label states.

Read the label and follow it exactly. Don't get it on your skin or cloths, protect all reptiles from breathing the vapours, leave the space and ventilate it (outside not into the house)

[I-KandyReptiles]

If we can't have PAM, then what do we use? I don't like the idea of NIX?

[Ginevive]

I would look into the laws on an actual government website. I know from taxidermy that asking around with regular people can lead to misinformation, since there are so many specific laws out there. Maybe look into your local phone# for the.. DEA.. not sure who would have the information there.

[SquamishSerpents]

Unless it is illegal to use in your area ... Like Canada, Europe, Australia and some US states... The list is growing. All pesticides should be used exactly as the instructions say. Making up instructions and testing them on your animals is likely not a good idea. Never forget you are dealing with a toxic chemical that can, will, and has, poisoned snakes, follow all instructions exactly.

It cannot be sold here in Canada because there is no French labeling on the bottle.

At least I believe that's the reason. If so, and if the manufacturer were willing to look into this and make a French label, they would open up a huge market! That stuff is an absolute PITA to get here!

[SquamishSerpents]

What are you talking about? I don't even know what you are trying to say. The active ingredient in PAM is the same as in NIX

NOPE.

A box of Kleenex is tissue, but not all tissue is Kleenex.

A bottle of Pantene is shampoo, but not all shampoo is Pantene.

Permethrin is a CLASS of pesticides. It is a broad name that includes many different formulations. So saying it has the same active ingredient is untrue.

[Skiploder]

NOPE.

A box of Kleenex is tissue, but not all tissue is Kleenex.

A bottle of Pantene is shampoo, but not all shampoo is Pantene.

Permethrin is a CLASS of pesticides. It is a broad name that includes many different formulations. So saying it has the same active ingredient is untrue.

PAM is the same formulation as Sawyer's clothing spray that is sold in REI stores for a fraction of the price. They are both manufactured by Coulston.

Sawyers:
http://www.rei.com/product/768970/sa...mp-spray-24-oz

24 oz for $16.00.

Difference is PAM runs about $3.00 + an ounce (depending on where you buy it) and you can pick Sawyers up at your local REI for $1.00/ounce.

The 24 oz formulation is a manual pump and works just as well. How do I know? I use it.

I spoke to Coulston and they said they only difference between the aerosol and the hand pump is the propellant. So I buy my Coulston insecticide for less than a dollar per ounce.

This info has been tossed back and forth for years. The idea that any permethrin product is safe is flawed. Whether it's Nix or Rid or Sawyer's or PAM - it's all potentially lethal. The difference with PAM is that you are getting a set of instructions specific to the use around reptiles and the "ahem" piece of mind that it was tested around reptiles. People have had health issues using PAM around snakes - it needs to be used with extreme caution.

Hope that helps.

[treeboa]

I might worry if it wasn't for the fact that I've been using it for the last ten years with no problem and so has thousands of others in the US. The fog you talk about is very localized and dissipates very quickly. The caution with amphibians and arachnids is because they are hyper-sensitive to toxins. And bleach, bathroom cleaner, and many other things have skin contact warnings and people use them every day. I don't see any hysterical posts about them.

[kitedemon]

Hmm change of tune there now it is ok not to follow the instructions. I am not hysterical I am saying it is toxic and follow the instructions. For the record bleach is not a suspected human Carcenogen but it still requires respect two years ago a student locally was killed by a hazardous decomposition of household bleach. Chlorine gas is bad for you. All chemicals are dangerous if not used as directed.

Use the product with the respect it deserves and follow the instructions. I am sorry if that makes more work for you. I have been mixing chemicals for 25 years. I wish 20 years ago I was as careful as I am today.

In the 40s it was thought mercury might be bad for you. My dad remembers being given large balls of mercury to play with at the dentist. Now we know Minamata disease is no joke. 'Suspected' should be enough to treat it as known.


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[Peoples]

Tho I've never had mites... I would suggest to treat with PAM...
As for getting those suckers off your snake... Key word of advice, mites can be drowned