Question for all the "exotic" keepers on here....

[OctagonGecko729]

I think both are correct. The difference is the roll we see ourself in. I am not yet a breeder so I am making myself responsible but it is currently as the buyer. One day I will be on the other side and I will do whatever I can to be as responsible as possible when selling any animal.

I can certainly see your point of view we are just viewing this from different perspectives.

Very good point, that was something I overlooked. Thanks for correcting that.

[xFenrir]

I don't think it would be out of line to require permit classes (the same idea as like Driver's Ed) to own larger constrictors. That way if they have a permit and are improperly keeping their pets there is NO EXCUSE. Even more so if they don't have one and are caught with one.

You could also argue that this would be best for all exotic animals, and just have different levels of permit. That gets complicated but if it helps weed out the idiots that got a Retic or something just to show off how "cool" or "bada$$" they are, I'm all for it.


I COMPLETELY agree that EVERYONE who wants to own a hot should have to go through classes and get some sort of license or permit. There's just too much "what if's" that can happen and so many idiots out there that the best weapon to fight it is knowledge.



Just my though.

[darkbloodwyvern]

Let's stir the pot here a bit:

First and foremost (in principle):

I favor regulations because they protect animals from many of the idiots who own them and have no idea how to care for them or who view them as disposable.

I favor regulations that favor dedicated keepers.

I favor regulations that are not trojan horses for animal right's groups to in turn impose their regulations and values on me.

I favor regulations that protect my ability to keep exotics - specifically by limiting the ability of others (who may do this hobby harm) to keep them.

Here's the rub: the problem is that those regulations must come from within the hobby - not from grandstanding, knee-jerking, glad handing politicians. Those regulations must be imposed by dedicated keepers in order to protect a specialty subsect of exotics from not-so-dedicated keepers. Those regulations must not be wielded as weapons by animal "welfare" groups via future amendments.

The problem is that such a set of regulations cannot exist in this society, with this government and with a law enacting system that allows for good bills to be gradually amended, twisted and turned bad.

Therefore, because a perfect set of regulations cannot be sustained in our society, I am forced to oppose regulations - even if it means that animals will suffer, that welfare groups will be given a steady stream of propaganda and even if it means that someday, my rights may disappear via a draconian set of regulations imposed on me.

This is pretty much my stance too. I feel like regulations that will punish those who abuse and neglect animals ought to be done for the animals and for public safety and health. Oftentime these laws are badly written and punish good, responsible people. I opposed a local ordinace that was going to charge people with unneutered dogs. This wouldn't eliminate backyard breeders and all it would really accomplish is punishing responsible dog breeders by adding MORE fees to their business and make the backyard breeders stop bringing their poor animals in for even the most basic of veterinary care. We have an animal overpopulation issue in our area, but the way to handle it is through education and assisting the folks who find feral animals and bring them in out of the goodness of their hearts. I don't beleive people should own an animal if they can't afford to care for it, however, a lot of those people are kind hearted and do the best they can for those animals. It is pretty easy to judge some homeless guy for having a dog and no shelter for it, but that doesn't mean the dog doesn't get food, love and exercise and it may even be in better shape than a dog that gets overfed and locked up at home all day while the owner is at work. At the very least, the "homeless" dog has constant companionship and frequent walking.

That said, a lot of the b&%$#@s who drag a poor animal or kid around for sympathy money tick me off. I know this tends to be a huge majority, but I do know there are some folks who are honest and care more for their pet than themselves.

I just wish that people who get off their rumps more often, volunteer for ashelter, donate some timeor money to spay and neuter organizations and DO SOMETHING rather than expect the government to do it for them. Probelms like giant exotic snakes eating wildlife in Florida wouldn't be so rampant if people knew how to properly care for a giant snake and actually have reasonable expectations of their own abilities. I know people who haver the energy to keep up with five dogs, four cats and I don't know how many parrots. They might be considered animal hoarders by some. I would REALLY be overwhelmed by that amount of animals. My advice? Don't throw money at animal issues if you can get off your duff and DO something. Places like Petco will stop selling sick and wild caught animals if they keep getting cut off by GOOD breeders and people don't give them money for poorer quality pets. Not saying all Petco animals are bad, but I've had some sad experiences with our local store and it prejudices me. I don't respect the idea of buying an animal to save it because I know that means it will be replaced with another unfortunate soul as fast as possible. :C I DO respect the idea of complaining to the store manager, the district manager and the company rep and petitioning them for basic health and shelter for the animals being sold. This kind of action has made other companies limit the amount of large parrots being dispensed out as though they were toys rather than very sensitive, long lived and difficult pets! We can do the same for reptiles and other exotics. Apologies for the blather, but PETA is wrong. We can own domestic AND exotic animals responsibly. No kill shelters DO succeed in saving so many animals, it is worth fighting for if we think and act and spend responsibly!

That being said, I will never own a couger, tiger, wolf or anaconda. I'm not sure if I'm tough enough to handle a ten foot python, much less a 200 pounder! I get my snakes from breeders and do not buy animals from Petco and actively send people to the local stores I know accept only the best bred birds and reptiles and fish. Personal responsibility is an almost magical thing!

[Willie76]

I read this thread and had to step away to collect my thoughts on this issue. I think the majority of us have only one concern when it comes to any type of animal, pet or native, and that is the welfare of the animal. Nearly all of us have gone to great lengths to ensure the animal we bring into our home and into our lives is well cared for and has a good life. WE have invested great amounts of time, energy, AND money to provide. We have gone so far as to join forums such as these to pass along education and knowledge to new owners or to ask our own questions when WE need advice. We also freely give to others who come here seeking advice on how to best care for their animals or to people contemplating owning many types of herps. All in all in the end, we all just want what is best for our beloved pets so we can continue to enjoy this hobby...

As far as regulations go, regulating humanity is a nearly impossible task. Humans are as imperfect as any species comes. We fail miserably because of our capacity for feelings, wants, needs, and desires. Nature usually doesn't have that problem. Animals are born with innate instincts that guide them through their lives and is about the greatest example of perfect existence. I agree that the people proposing and passing blanket legislation and local ordinances have no idea what they are doing. There is no way they understand, or are even willing to hear or learn what our hobby is all about. So because of their preconceived notions or beliefs in certain animal species, they pass these laws believing they are right and just. They hear of the exceptions to the rule. ONE guy was killed in Ohio by a Burmese python so the other 300,000 Burms. 500,00 boas, and one million ball pythons are all bad. TWO counties in Florida (the only two counties in the whole US that can sustain a Burmese) have an issue with "invasive" pythons so we'll just ban ALL Burmese pythons, North and South African pythons, and Anacondas from "invading" the rest of the United States. And as far as snakes go, here are the average deaths per year by species:

Average Number of Deaths per Year in the U.S

Bee/Wasp	53
Dogs	31
Spider	6.5
Rattlesnake	5.5
Mountain lion	1
Shark	1
Alligator	0.3
Bear	0.5
Scorpion	0.5
Centipede	0.5
Elephant	0.25
Wolf	0.1
Horse	20
Bull	3

Now, do we need to regulate keeping herps, specifically snakes? Will it work? Do gun laws work? DO drunk driving laws work? Do banking regulations work? Do we have the staff and resources to enforce the existing laws? I don't think they do work and I sure the hell don't think the government is doing a good job of enforcing the laws that are already on the books in any area they try to "regulate". They are trying to regulate humanity and in the end, there will always be people that think the laws don't apply to them. There will always be people who will buy that Burm or Retic on a whim without educating themselves as to what keeping a big snake entails. We see the same disregard for Ball pythons, corn snakes, dogs, cats, and just about every animal kept by people and in about every regulated industry.

SO no, I do not believe regulations will work...

I DO believe the MAJORITY do very well in educating themselves....before or after the fact to me doesn't matter...they learn real fast. I have answered a handful of posts of people who come here after they have purchased their Ball and they get educated in CORRECT husbandry very quickly. I consider myself a good keeper. I have a good understanding of basic husbandry, I practice good quarantine procedures with new additions, I try to pick the BEST feeders I can find, and I am very ADD about my snakes environments (often calling my wife numerous times a day to give me their cage "numbers"...lol). YET I learn something new every day. I give some knowledge back every day. I don't know EVERYTHING. And anyone who says or believes they can't learn anything new is not someone I take advice from.

SO in short, I think our hobby needs to regulate itself. We are the ones who need to educate our family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, politicians and anyone willing to listen and learn. I think we have done a fabulous job up until now, but we have a long way to go. It is only by our individual efforts as part of this group that our group and our industry will make the difference and survive. It is in OUR patience and willingness to learn and our willingness to teach that will make the difference. We will not convert everyone. But the more we can show others how to care for our beloved herps, the more we can demonstrate the fact our snakes are far less "dangerous" than your common pets, the less legislation will be passed that will decimate our hobby and our way of life. IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY.

[nachash]

Well at least I am not the only one with scarface dreams of a tiger in the backyard, a Michelle Pfiefer in the front, and automatic weapons in my fortress/house. Also heck, if none of these things are that dangerous (cept dearest Michelle out of her mind on quaaludes) then why have any laws any safety nets or anything regarding them?

All this talk about a self regulating hobby...we don't exactly have the same constituency as say the Jedi Knights or Time Lords or some other fictional self regulating group. I think people have already questioned the government's inability to self regulate itself and the greater population.

If we get more regulation it will probably become an issue of too much rather than not enough. More wisdom from a movie: in The Hangover Mike Tyson owned a tiger. I don't know if he does but should Mike Tyson be able to own a tiger? If he goes out and changes his face with a inconspicuous tattoo, God bless him and America. But if the tiger gets out and mauls....anything smaller than it (as tigers are apt to do) than at least we respected Mike Tyson's God given right to own an animal who's care is essentially a full time job that people train years for.

This is a problem without a fix because there are people with bad judgement who look at an exotic animal as if it were a pokemon. Then on the other side we have our crazy reactionary lunatics who think even a ball python has the unprecedented ability to choke a human from around their neck, despite their method being to constrict a victim's diaphram.

An intermediate level of regulation would be ideal. But apparently that is too much or not enough for everybody. To those with questionable judgement: is a class and a permit really too much after the $$$$$ and hours you pour into your animal planet special waiting to happen? How dare people question your ability to control this force of nature after they already question your judgement.

The fact that animal care has any political element is already a problem. And the idea that politics pervade everything is just stupid. But hey, Tony Montana with a gun is more dangerous than Mike Tyson with a tiger. At least society understands that.

[KingObeat]

I would support a permit system for certain animals if the laws and regulations were written by other hobbyists or people who support our right to own what animals we want. Right now I don't support any new laws, because the Politicians have no idea what they're talking about and they're making their decisions based on information that they get from from groups who don't want us to have anything "exotic".

[Darkbird]

Even a self regulating hobby can find itself having issues with the government. If you don't think so, take a look at what is going on with the model aircraft hobby right now. Even with the help of a large centralised and well funded organzation fronting us we are having issues. Which sucks for me as the only two things I really do a lot could be severely altered or taken away completely. As long as the laws are written by those outside the hobby, they will not work in our favor. Heck, the only people who know there is a problem are those of us who actually consider this a hobby. The average person with a single snake/lizard/turtle or whatever will quietly sit back and never hear any of this, or will do the ol' "It doesn't/won't concern/effect me, I just have _________". As many have already said, education is our best tool. And I hope to be very good at using it someday.

[Slick Serpents]

I think that any animal prohibition should not take place if the un-involved public is not at risk. An example could be that a snake owner who has all of his animals on his or her property, and under his supervision, should not be made to submit to any regulations.