San Francisco Garter Snake in captivity?

[N4S]

you should talk to this member about them - http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ghlight=garter

[infernalis]

This subject is one I can carry on about forever.

There is no such thing as a permit to have them in the USA, it is a felony straight up to have or molest them in any way.

The specimens in captivity in Europe are not in any way due to government stupidity, Just because we recognize them as critically endangered, they are a US species, therefore they are not endangered in other countries, since they are not indigenous anywhere but the USA.

A little trivia, the snakes in the San Francisco zoo are from the European bloodlines, it was easier for the zoo to import them from Holland than to get clearance from uncle Sam to gather more.

The Sharp Park golf course destroyed an immense habitat when the engineers diked off the waterways and backfilled the wetlands to make a "prime" spot for golfing.

[Skiploder]

This subject is one I can carry on about forever.

There is no such thing as a permit to have them in the USA, it is a felony straight up to have or molest them in any way.

The specimens in captivity in Europe are not in any way due to government stupidity, Just because we recognize them as critically endangered, they are a US species, therefore they are not endangered in other countries, since they are not indigenous anywhere but the USA.

A little trivia, the snakes in the San Francisco zoo are from the European bloodlines, it was easier for the zoo to import them from Holland than to get clearance from uncle Sam to gather more.

The Sharp Park golf course destroyed an immense habitat when the engineers diked off the waterways and backfilled the wetlands to make a "prime" spot for golfing.

So the USFWS Recovery Permits under Section 10(a)(1)(A) for the SF Garters don't exist?

I'll tell that to the two biologist I know who are keeping them under Section 10 Recovery permits.

[infernalis]

I'll tell that to the two biologist I know who are keeping them under Section 10 Recovery permits.

I'd wager that these biologists are most likely involved with the habitat restoration project.

And if you understood what a section 10 recovery permit is, it is in no way a permission slip for a fellow enthusiast to keep these animals as pets.

[Skiploder]

I'd wager that these biologists are most likely involved with the habitat restoration project.

And if you understood what a section 10 recovery permit is, it is in no way a permission slip for a fellow enthusiast to keep these animals as pets.

They are, but they are also enthusiasts like the rest of us.

The point is that it is possible to keep them. The fact that the USFWS is allowing take and recovery permits may eventually lead to ownership in the hobby. Your statement that there is no permit in the states that allows you to keep them is not exactly correct.

I have a very firm understanding of what a Section 10 permit entails. We deal with biologists all the time who possess these for various "endangered" species - red legged frog, clapper rail, blah, blah, blah.

They are not that hard to find. I know a few places in San Mateo County where, during the right time of year, you can find them in fairly large numbers. We may find one day that private ownership, without the miles of paperwork and scientific permits, may be here before we know it.

[infernalis]

Myself and a whole lot of people I know would be first in line for that.

I'm just curious why no talk of this is running in the Thamnophis circles?

[Skiploder]

Myself and a whole lot of people I know would be first in line for that.

I'm just curious why no talk of this is running in the Thamnophis circles?

I have no idea - I'm not familiar with Thamnophis circles.............but I can tell you from experience with other species - cribos for instance, that common sense ideas such as preserving locality variants appears to not be on anyone's radar.

There are areas in north western SC county and SM where you can find them. A number of years ago we were paving for Caltrans near Pescadero and saw large numbers of them, especially in brush adjacent to wetland ponds.

There were enough of them that biologists were required to come in and relocate them in areas where we were staging - they would readily congregate under trench shoring, form wood, etc.

I have never understood why a species that is relatively easy to breed in captivity is not being considered for a captive breeding program. A lot of other native species on the critically endangered list have prohibitive husbandry requirements and are hard to breed - red legged frogs, gobies and birds come to mind.

But this isn't the case with SF Garters. While the vaunted European population is suffering from inbreeding and stagnant bloodlines, a captive breeding program here in the states could revitalize the species, make them available to people here, and ease the poaching stresses on the wild population.

Within a decade these would be just as affordable as any other garter..............

Apparently, the government knows best.

[infernalis]

I don't believe the crisis has as much to do with snake population as it does with destruction of habitat.

Some of the herpers I know who lurk around Humboldt county get some great photos.

The core of the problem is they are a locality specific snake, and the locality they once called home is dwindling fast.

If you see tetrataenia in the wild, PLEASE take photos, I know of a couple Thamnophis sites that would love to display them for you.

I have a ton of captive photos from Europe on display, always welcome and appreciate "in the wild" photos.

[Skiploder]

I don't believe the crisis has as much to do with snake population as it does with destruction of habitat.

Some of the herpers I know who lurk around Humboldt county get some great photos.

The core of the problem is they are a locality specific snake, and the locality they once called home is dwindling fast.

If you see tetrataenia in the wild, PLEASE take photos, I know of a couple Thamnophis sites that would love to display them for you.

I have a ton of captive photos from Europe on display, always welcome and appreciate "in the wild" photos.

I agree on the destruction of habitat...........but............

While they have lost a lot of habitat in the Pacifica/San Bruno Area, along with lands east of Hwy 280 through urban San Mateo County, a lot of habitat remains on the west side of those coast ranges. Being local to this area, having lived and worked in this area, I can go out and drive for miles and see suitable range and habitat.

Maybe you and I would agree that the SF garter would lend itself wonderfully to a captive propagation and reintroduction program. Problem is that the USFWS doesn't seem to be interested.

What if the USFWS reached out to the Thamnophis Community and offered a limited number of WC specimen for a 15 year captive breeding program? What if that program stipulated that until wild populations could be stabilized by introducing them into the former limits their historical range, that these breeders would have to give 80% of their clutches back to the USFWS for reintroduction into the wild? What if the USFWS required that the remaining 20% of the animals be chipped in order to make sure that no poached or smuggled animals made it into the hobby.

From the northern part of Santa Cruz County to Daly City, there are miles upon miles of suitable reintroduction areas into what was their historical range. These areas will never be developed.

So the question remains - why is the Federal Government not promoting a reintroduction plan of this species?

[infernalis]

Sorry if it seemed like I skipped out....

This has been a great conversation and educational.

One of my "wet dream" herping trips is to photograph some San frans on the ground... One day I hope to fulfill that.