A couple questions on genetics (Pieds and Pastels)

[Oxylepy]

First: Is the degree of white on a Pied passable genetically? In other words if you were to breed two High Whites together would there be an increased chance of High White offspring?

Second: Are the varying forms of Pastel the same gene or different genes that we call Pastel? In other words could you produce a Super Pastel with a touch of Lemon, or a Super Pastel Black Pastel (and by both of those I mean 2 genes for Pastel 1 gene for Lemon/Black Pastel), or would you only be able to produce Pastel Lemon Pastels and Pastel Black Pastels, etc? What about for; Jungle, Enchi, Blonde, Cinnamon)?

[dreese88]

First: Is the degree of white on a Pied passable genetically? In other words if you were to breed two High Whites together would there be an increased chance of High White offspring?

Second: Are the varying forms of Pastel the same gene or different genes that we call Pastel? In other words could you produce a Super Pastel with a touch of Lemon, or a Super Pastel Black Pastel (and by both of those I mean 2 genes for Pastel 1 gene for Lemon/Black Pastel), or would you only be able to produce Pastel Lemon Pastels and Pastel Black Pastels, etc? What about for; Jungle, Enchi, Blonde, Cinnamon)?

I've heard that the amount of white on a pied isn't genetic, but perhaps somebody more knowledgable can make a better statement on them.

As far as pastels go, I think jungle, blonde & lemon are all compatible. The black pastel & cinnamon though are different genes. A super pastel black pastel is called a Silver Streak and a Super pastel Cinny is called a Sterling. If you search on here, there were a few threads not long ago with pictures of each.

I'm pretty sure enchi is separate from all of them

[RandyRemington]

I've not seen reports of anyone doing long term experiments to really answer either of those questions 100%.

The general consensus seems to be that the amount of white in pieds is random but it could have a genetic component that is just more complex than we've figured out yet.

Also with pastel the general consensus is that they are all the same gene (except for enchi and cinnamon both of which once had "pastel" in their names). However, I don't know if anyone has say crossed a lemon super pastel to a Graziani super pastel and confirmed that the resulting animal not only looked like a super pastel but also could produce no normals. Assuming pastel's are all the same gene the even harder to answer question is if they are all exactly the same mutation of that gene with differences in lines all being selective breeding to add other enhancing genes or if there could be some actual variation in the mutation of what we group together as pastel.

[dr del]

Hi,

First;

Everything I have heard people claim state the amount of white is totally random - otherwise there would be "strains" of piebald worth varying amounts dictated by peoples tastes.

Second,

Not everything called "pastel" is actually in the same grouping.

Cinnamon and black pastel could be regarded as one genetic group, jungle pastel isn't actually genetic at all as far as I know - well at least not reproducibly so.


Of the ones traditionally regarded as the actual pastels they are all compatible aside from enchi and possibly zebra (but zebra might be- just never heard anyone say yay or nay ).

So you can make superpastels by any combination of lemons, graziani, blonde and stonewashed I think.

But if someone knows better feel free to edumacate my brit butt.

**sheesh I type slow these days**


dr del

[hoo-t]

A little from my own point of view ...

...Also with pastel the general consensus is that they are all the same gene (except for enchi and cinnamon both of which once had "pastel" in their names). However, I don't know if anyone has say crossed a lemon super pastel to a Graziani super pastel and confirmed that the resulting animal not only looked like a super pastel but also could produce no normals. Assuming pastel's are all the same gene the even harder to answer question is if they are all exactly the same mutation of that gene with differences in lines all being selective breeding to add other enhancing genes or if there could be some actual variation in the mutation of what we group together as pastel...

Dont know of any actual breedings, but from my own knowledge of genetics (relating to ball pythons), a super lemon pastel bred with a super Graziani pastel should produce all super pastels (Graziani/Lemon). Every offspring would have one lemon pastel gene and one Graziani pastel gene. There should be no possibility of normals in this breeding. SUPPOSEDLY, breeding one of these offspring to a normal should produce both Graziani pastels and lemon pastels, but no normals. That is IF there is truly a difference in the Graziani and lemon pastel genes.

...Cinnamon and black pastel could be regarded as one genetic group, jungle pastel isn't actually genetic at all as far as I know - well at least not reproducibly so...dr del

Its my understanding that a "jungle pastel" is simply a pastel which is a) not identified as a lemon, Graziani, blonde, ... b) a line of pastel which is not descendent of lemon, Graziani, blonde, ... c) that ALL pastels (excluding cinnamon and black) are "jungle pastels". Jungle when used by itself identifies a pattern which may or may not be genetically reproducible, but when used with "pastel" (jungle pastel) it simply describes a pastel.

Finally, I haven't researched any of this in quite a long time, so there may be newer, more definitive information, but its my understanding that cinnamon/black pastel are compatible, meaning a cinnamon bred to a black pastel would produce cinnamons, black pastels and supers (and normals).

Just as a side note, I just came from the NARBC show in Arlington. There were very few black pastels there, but quite a few cinnamons. If you lined them all up and asked me to identify them as cinnamon or black pastel, I would have gotten a fair number of them wrong.

Steve