Genetic "flaws" associated with various morphs?

[nixer]

hey Albey do you need my address

[Mischke]

I am sorry but I don’t believe you, and I disagree with you whole-heartedly. Show me these pictures or direct me to the animals that you say look like that.

This one short of looks likes a duck-bill as well. But its head isn’t black. Do you believe that the illusion can also apply for snakes with white heads?

http://ballroompythonssouth.com/cata...2c7c041f6af960

[RandyRemington]

I didn't ask to take any pictures of the two outbred sibling supers I saw but one of them definitely had some nose problems along with the kinks. I don't know how common it is but the ones people are more willing to post photos of are probably the ones with little to no problem. The other one looked good to me but like I said the breeder thought it looked a little off too. I suppose the way to get to the bottom of the less obvious defects would be with some actual caliper measurements maybe of ratio of nose width to head length or something like that and see how it varies between normal, cinnamon/black pastel, and super cinnamon/black pastel siblings. I wouldn't expect a small amount of duckbilling to be a big deal but it sounds like some of the more extreme examples and the kinked ones are a possibility you need to consider when breeding for supers.

[pythontricker]

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them. Ralph Davis, LLLReptile, and Mike Wilbanks/Bob Clark are all very good breeders. Ralph only does phone orders which shows he really does care about his animals. Don't Buy from Petco or Petsmart they get their stock from Rainbow Exotics and other Bad Breeders that often have bad breeding and caring conditions and practices.

I bought a really healthy and beautiful spider from BHB. It ate within the first 5 hours of being at my house. Thats after being in a box for longer than 24 hours. I got my gtp from LLLReptile, and it had tons of mites, and a very large lump on its chest near its heart. What a hassle. I have never heard of any complaints from customers of BHB. They are Going to be one of the only breeders that I buy from, from now on. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[stevenkeogh]

I bought a really healthy and beautiful spider from BHB. It ate within the first 5 hours of being at my house. Thats after being in a box for longer than 24 hours. I got my gtp from LLLReptile, and it had tons of mites, and a very large lump on its chest near its heart. What a hassle. I have never heard of any complaints from customers of BHB. They are Going to be one of the only breeders that I buy from, from now on. You have no idea what you are talking about.

People have to stop acting like they are in high school and trying to stick up for someone in a popularity contest.
You have no right to tell someone they have no idea what they are talking about. Do you have firsthand knowledge of every single transaction BHB or anyone else has ever taken part in? Of course not.
I am not saying anything negative about BHB but for you to come into a discussion and try to negate someone's opinion just because YOU haven't had a bad experience with the person makes you look like a moron that is just trying to suck up to a big breeder. Send them a friend request if you want to be their buddy so bad.
-Steven

[nixer]

imma go out and say this much ive heard all sorts of stories about all sorts of breeders big and small. im not going to get into that, but i have dealt with quite a few of them personally. im sure with so many snakes and sales your sure to have an issue every now and then.

[Bill Buchman]

I didn't ask to take any pictures of the two outbred sibling supers I saw but one of them definitely had some nose problems along with the kinks. I don't know how common it is but the ones people are more willing to post photos of are probably the ones with little to no problem. The other one looked good to me but like I said the breeder thought it looked a little off too. I suppose the way to get to the bottom of the less obvious defects would be with some actual caliper measurements maybe of ratio of nose width to head length or something like that and see how it varies between normal, cinnamon/black pastel, and super cinnamon/black pastel siblings. I wouldn't expect a small amount of duckbilling to be a big deal but it sounds like some of the more extreme examples and the kinked ones are a possibility you need to consider when breeding for supers.

Randy --

In addition to measuring, maybe an impression of clay, wax or putty?? Everybody has heard theories and opinion about the super Blacks and Cinny's.. What I have gathered from the "they committee" is that Ians Black x Black have normal face. Also, his line of Black Pastel crossed with any line of Cinny will look good. Although, Albey hatched some Graziani Cinnys that looked good. Hardly scientific. From the pics I have seen, the Super Black Pied looks to have a perfect face. Only time and a lot more breeding will tell I guess????

[Slim]

I am sorry but I don’t believe you, and I disagree with you whole-heartedly. Show me these pictures or direct me to the animals that you say look like that.

I'm sorry, but you don't have to believe me, and disagreements make the world go around, whole-heartedly, and other wise.

Since you asked:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...pythons_07.asp

Clutch Number 2...last pic on the right. You telling me this is a visual illusion?

I'm a Targeteer...I interpret images for a living...that is no illusion. Using the picture on the far left in that row I did a simple photo scale reciprical measurement. Measuring the width of the Super's nose with those of the two Cinny's shows that the Super's nose is, on average, 3.4mm wider at the widest part than the Cinny's at the widest part. In addition, using indirect ratio measurement, the Super's nose is .9mm taller than the two Cinny's on average. The combination of these two differences in width and height are what give it the duckbill look....not an illusion, a tweeked BP.

And before you ask, I checked my measurments against 3 other pictures showing multiple BP's in the same frame (constant photo scale) and all their measurements came out to within .2mm of eachother...well with in standard deviation error perimeters.

[Albey]

I'm sorry, but you don't have to believe me, and disagreements make the world go around, whole-heartedly, and other wise.

Since you asked:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...pythons_07.asp

Clutch Number 2...last pic on the right. You telling me this is a visual illusion?

I'm a Targeteer...I interpret images for a living...that is no illusion. Using the picture on the far left in that row I did a simple photo scale reciprical measurement. Measuring the width of the Super's nose with those of the two Cinny's shows that the Super's nose is, on average, 3.4mm wider at the widest part than the Cinny's at the widest part. In addition, using indirect ratio measurement, the Super's nose is .9mm taller than the two Cinny's on average. The combination of these two differences in width and height are what give it the duckbill look....not an illusion, a tweeked BP.

And before you ask, I checked my measurments against 3 other pictures showing multiple BP's in the same frame (constant photo scale) and all their measurements came out to within .2mm of eachother...well with in standard deviation error perimeters.

This is exactly why I challenged you on that. It is Human Nature for us to think someone that we respect words are true. When a Ball Python breeder of the caliber of Kevin McCurley, Tracy and Dave Barker, or Ralph Davis state something everyone takes it as the absolute truth. Ralph Davis was one of the earliest breeders to come out and declare a problem with the Super Black Pastel and Super Cinnamons. He states so in the link you have posted and has also posted like information on his Journal Pages. A lot of people have read this information you included. I think this is affecting your opinion. The fact that you evaluate photographs for a living makes it harder for me to believe you do. I look at the pictures at the link you are referring to and once again I am sorry but I do not see any problem with the Super Cinny in question.

As far as that goes Ralph Davis may be changing his original opinion also. When I hatched out my Silver Bullet (Super Cinnamon/Pastel) one of the first persons I sent the pictures to was Ralph. I asked him if he thought there was any problem with the nose on him. In case you do not know Ralph personally he likes to screw with you so this response was to be expected - “looks great Albey..........but if you can't see that he has the classic "platypus face"...........well...........your BLIND!! LOL........a big GRATS!!.............I love the pics of it while still in the egg. What makes them look so weird is that the head looks elongated and the cheeks not full enough...........it's an optical illusion”.

Here is said picture in egg.

[envy_ld50]

How many of you actually own a super cinny or super cinny cross. Not alot of you and I know that for sure! Both me and Albey have shown that they do not have deformities like crazy. Their may have been a few documented cases but there is not enough to call it a morph trait. Sometime when I open the super cinnys tub his head looks odd its an illusion! Take a normal ball python and photoshop it a solid black color it distorts the head.