Opinions on breeding young / small females

[Vibrant Balls]

Here is another thought.

If the female is bred under 1500g, wouldn't the eggs be smaller and also make it much harder to raise up the hatchlings? Or would they still be large eggs and just be less of them?

To each their own I guess. I'd stick with the 1500g minimum, but everyone has the right to their own judgement and opinion.

[littleindiangirl]

Well, here's me sticking my big head back into the mess. We had eggs come from our girl that wasn't up to the "magic" weight of 1500, and she gave us 4 very nice eggs, but they were also all around 100 grams when we weighed them. I don't want to say they weighed 100 grams coming out, because if I have it right we didn't weigh right away, so they very well could have put on some grams inbetween the time they were laid and we weighed them. (Egg's breathe, they absorb and release water weight every day, and they lose quite a bit as they get closer to hatching.)

Now this isn't to say that a small female won't have physically small eggs, but I rather expect her to have less eggs. I'm not sure how true all of this is in regards to the whole, it's just what happened in our situation.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

[MarkS]

I personally think that age is more important then size. I feel comfortable breeding anything over 3 years of age no matter what size they are. If they don't want to lay eggs, they don't

[Wh00h0069]

Thanks, and good luck with your projects as well!

Thank you!

[Wh00h0069]

If there was absolutely no danger I'm pretty confident that there would be no 1500g guideline.
I should clarify, the 1500g rule is the consensus up here in Canada.
Seems that the forums frequented by mostly Americans prefer 1200g.
They are your animals, nobody is going to be able to stop you from endangering any of them. So I hope for your success.
-Steven

I'm sorry. I must have mis-read your original post. I thought you were saying that I should not have posted this discussion, because I was somehow mistreating my animals by breeding them young / small, and condoning others to mistreat their animals. If that is not the case, I apologize.

[Wh00h0069]

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

Adam,
Thank you very much for you insight into this, and great post. This is the post that I was looking for. I know a lot of people say dont' breed them young / small, but they have never tried. I am very glad that a professional could chime in with personal experience.

Thanks again,

[Wh00h0069]

Here is another thought.

If the female is bred under 1500g, wouldn't the eggs be smaller and also make it much harder to raise up the hatchlings? Or would they still be large eggs and just be less of them?

To each their own I guess. I'd stick with the 1500g minimum, but everyone has the right to their own judgement and opinion.

I don't think this is the case. The reason I say this is because I had two sets of twins this season. Each twin was half the size of all of their single-egg clutch mates. I had no problem getting them to eat, and they are all four doing just fine. Actually I held back the twin spider females, and neither has missed a meal to this day.

[PastelDreamMorphs]

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

Adam I agree with you 100% and I don't think that could have been said any better

Good luck this year with your projects also Adam and have a safe and happy holiday

[771subliminal]

at what point does age come into play? if you have a girl in her 3rd winter @ 800-900 grams do you wait go for it and what if she is only 1100-1200 in her 4th?

if you look at people grown women that have perfectly healthy babies and no problem with child birth range from our little people of 3ft to women of 7ft+ and all most likely will birth a avg size new born baby.

are there the little bps? we have seen the giants