I am not a believer -do you think you can convert me?

[jimmyfoxca]

Okay, I write this post with respect and a willingness to learn. However, I am having a hard time believing the following "recycled" statements (both of which I happen to abide by):

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

I would argue against these two theories based on the life of ball pythons in their natural environments. Having said that, I understand there are things you would not allow to happen with captive animals that happen in the wild.

For instance, I understand that many feed f/t because of the fear of rodents biting the snake. In this case, the naturalist would argue that if they eat live in the wild they should be able to do the same in captivity? In theory, this is true. Snakes in the wild feed live and probably get bitten. The difference is, in the wild the snake dies and balance is maintained. However, in captivity the owner is out anywhere from 100-20,000 dollars! So, in that case I could see how the natural environment theory would not hold any water.

Nevertheless, I do not know if there is evidence or a good theory that could suggest that BP's in the wild are dying/living shorter lives because they could not find an identical burrow to hide in or that they will not eat anymore because they left their 3 - 4.5 square foot territory.

I am open to some new, out of the box, non recycled theories that would support the aforementioned statements (the hides, enclosure size and even the live vs. f/t statements).

I understand this post is long but I feel it could spark new knowledge about the hobby we all love so much.

Peace out,

Jimmy

[pythontricker]

Essentially, ball pythons live in rodent burrows for the majority of their lives. The rarely move to eat, as they are ambush predators. They rarely move at all in general. Some ball python owners choose to feed F/T or P/K because they just simply don't feel like taking the risk of a bite. Bites can be avoided while feeding live by simply sticking a cue-tip or chopstick into the mouse, or rats mouth. As for the hides, I use two different hides for some of my snakes and they use both. They seem to not care. Other snakes are different indeed. Though they are pretty domesticated and seem to be pretty stress free because they are used to me.
Did I miss anything? lol

[ohyeahnow]

I can understand the theory of identical hides, and think this may benefit the environment and snakes comfort in some cases. In my six cages no two, or more in some cases are alike. My BP in specific has two on opposite ends, three during shed time. If he is the shed process, he never leaves the hide until he sheds. As far as the other two hides go, he moves freely between both, as my other snakes move from hide to hide. The BP spends some time each day in each hide. If he did not, I would try two identical hides.

When I first started keeping snakes, the members of the herp society and and the Dr. Of biology all fed live. I purchased mice from my neighbor who fed all her snakes live as well. I never left a mouse unatended, and no snake was ever bitten. The benefits known with using f/t has caused me to only use f/t. 4 of my six snakes do not even wrap, if the even bite. Many will crawl up and eat. The one snake who has been on f/t wraps, but if the prey were alive, the place he strikes and the way he holds the prey would surely lead to a bite. My BP before I switched him, always struck and wrapped giving the mouse no opportunity to hurt him. So based on my observations, once a snake has regularly eaten f/t to switch back could cause the snake a harmful bite or scratch.

I believe the idea of keeping a snake in captivity in a smaller space with identicle hides is for his comfort, seeing that he is not in a natural setting. We pick our snakes up to handle or clean, and the snake realizes he is not immune to being picked up. For this reason it is important to make him feel as safe as possible. If he only feels safe in one hide, thermoregulation goes out the door. In this case two identical hides may help with a secure feeling and thermoregulation.

In the wild they live shorter lifes because of diseases, lack of food, road kill, and predators. These factors can all be controlled in captivity. Personally speaking IMO a large enclosure with plenty of hiding spots and temperature zones, a snake might do very well no matter how big his living area is, as long as his requirements are met.

Interesting discussion points.

[stangs13]

There is fault to your statement. In the wild ball pythons can FET away from a prey item that is harmful when a snake in an enclosure can't. That is why some people don't feed live, but I know alot of people that dofeed live.

[Oxylepy]

Hrm, the claim that a Ball will be more likely to be bit when eating f/t regularly seems a bit off in my experience. My adult male has gone extremely long periods of time only eating f/t and I have given him lives and he has had no problem killing them. And yes he will bite in the wrong place with f/t but he hits nicely every time he is offered a live.

[starmom]

I think there is a problem with ANY globalized generalization.
That said, there is also truth within globalized generalizations.

Example: I have 13 ball pythons. I have some in rack systems and some in 3x2x1 cages. There are some of my snakes who will not ever go into a cage given their seeming low level of security. I have 2 snakes who will not handle even a 32qt tub and so they are in 16qt tubs. Yes, one of them is small, but the other is the same size as others who happily inhabit a 32qt tub. When I put her into a bigger space she refuses food and this is a sign of stress.

All the snakes are a little bit different from the other. On this forum, it is wise to put out there the tried and true techniques so that new herpers can have near instant success with their snakes. Once these herpers gain a little experience and learn to read the snake's behaviors, then they go on with their education.

Just my thoughts.....

[Bruce Whitehead]

When I hear language such as "recycled" etc. it irks me.

This is not just random info that is being vomitted up for the sake of having something to type, but rather the collective qualitative experiences of myriad people that keep large numbers of BPs and have collections of thriving BPs.

Keep multiple BPs for an extended period, and throw caution to the wind and employ laissez-faire BP keeping and see how well they thrive.

If we were merely recycling info then all those early 80's manuals on BP husbandry would still be in print and not just being handed over when we rescue snakes that are near death.

The majority of these "recycled" guidelines are for new keepers that need a definitive set of rules that will ensure their snakes are well started and thriving. Most of us that promote them, may not even use them. Once you start keeping multiple snakes and you have a system that meets all the requirements, then you can start funking it up all you want while still meeting the snakes' needs.

The problems with people that are new, do not implement specific husbandry requirements, is that they make decisions on what they LIKE/WANT and not what the snake/s NEED.

That is a critical factor.

Stress is cumulative in a BP and without a proper understanding of BP behaviour and environmental needs, stress is often interpretated as "Look! The happy fuzzy lovey snakey wants to be picked up and draped around my shoulders while I shower it with kisses!!!"

I do not implement the newbie guidelines, for my established snakes, but I do implement them to a T when I get a rescued BP, and I know that those recycled guidelines can guarantee that I will get even the most stubborn BP eating again. I have received snakes that had been off feed for close to a year, and they usually eat for me within two weeks.

My established snakes still get all their needs met, but within a minimilistic framework. But I also know how to meet those needs. Where did I learn this? From other more experienced keepers and through trial and error implementation.

My arrogance and desire to give my snakes novel experience has definitely cost them at times, but that was part of the learning experience, that is why I will always admit to those mistakes in the hopes that others can learn from them.

Just my 0.02 dollars.

Bruce

[mooingtricycle]

ill say what i do

I have mine in 32qts. One hide. Some none. I feed live.

My temps are 85-88 almost always. Never higher. cool end is 75 or so, depending on the day.

I keep them on cypress mulch, and feed in the tub.


No problems with my methods.

[JLC]

Bruce really said it beautifully. I can only add a couple of thoughts...

None of the "laws" you have chosen to ask to be converted to are "laws" at all. They are suggestions. Granted, not everyone is as skilled with words (or simply has the desire to put out the effort) to get that fact across, so their suggestions sometimes come across as hard-and-fast rules. But honestly....any thinking person can and should be able to read the caresheets and read the discussion threads and pick out which suggestions they think it smart to follow, and which they think they don't need.

Two identical hides: Of course a ball python can live just fine with two different hides...or three or four....or just one....or even none at all. BUT...if you are new to keeping these creatures and want to be sure to minimize as many different sources of stress or error as possible...then two identical hides is a perfectly logical suggestion. Then you eliminate the question about whether your snake is favoring one hide to the detriment of proper temps or whatever.

Enclosure size: There are some babies that do just fine in larger enclosures. But this OFTEN stresses them out. So, for a beginner who wishes to have as few worries as possible, it's perfectly logical to suggest that they use a smaller enclosure for their snake. As the snake gets older....it becomes more a matter of the keeper's convenience and how much work they want to put into maintaining proper temperatures and humidity in a really large enclosure...not to mention the effort of keeping it clean. So again...it's logical to suggest smaller enclosures, especially for larger collections....as the snakes thrive in them as well.

I could go on and on with the discussion of f/t or live feeding. It all boils down to the keeper making their own choices about what works best for them versus the risks involved.

You don't need to be "converted".....you just need to understand that there is nothing wrong with these things being suggested to someone just starting out who wants to learn to walk before they start running marathons.

[nchapa]

I bet if you ask a big breeder what size enclosure for an adult ball he would tell you the minimum size. Why? because look at what most breeders use, rack systems, they maximize their number of balls if they have them in the minimum size container. I am sure you can keep your ball in bigger enclsures and they will thrive just as well.

Is that bad? I don't know, I follow those suggestions, because they work. Breeders big or small will not jeopordize their $$$ collection, so there must be some truth to it.

Could you imagine if the minimum size container for a ball was 4'x4'x1', instead of having 50 to 100 breeder balls they would have 10 to 20.

I have also noticed that alot of breeders only use 1 hide, and some dont even have 1, so does it make a difference in the number of hides? i guess if you feel your ball is stressed and not feeding add hides and see if that works.

I personally use 2 hides, and even have a hide for my retics, even though retic keepers dont usually use them.

Like it was stated they are just sugestions, and variations there of should not make a big difference if any.

I dont have anything against breeders and the number of balls they have, the reason I used them as an example is because they have thousands of dollars invested in them and it would be silly for them to risk the life of a high end ball to save space.