boas and ibd

[JTR]

I love boas, but i currently have a growing collection of carpets growing. i would love to have projects with brb, or even just a bcc or bci ( dont know the difference so please explain) to raise and have the joy of keeping. the only thing that really makes my stomache get in knots is thinking of my carpets getting ibd...i would be devastated.
is it only certain kinds of boas, or do they all have the potential of carrying it without showing signs? i've heard they can not show symptoms for a year or more, is that true?

sorry there is a lot of questions in that, i just worry a lot, hate to think of anything bad happening.

thanks for any replies

[Skiploder]

I love boas, but i currently have a growing collection of carpets growing. i would love to have projects with brb, or even just a bcc or bci ( dont know the difference so please explain) to raise and have the joy of keeping. the only thing that really makes my stomache get in knots is thinking of my carpets getting ibd...i would be devastated.
is it only certain kinds of boas, or do they all have the potential of carrying it without showing signs? i've heard they can not show symptoms for a year or more, is that true?

sorry there is a lot of questions in that, i just worry a lot, hate to think of anything bad happening.

thanks for any replies

BCC and BCI - also Eunectes. Some show signs, some do not. I have talked to vets who have treated the disease extensively say that they've seen boas go asymptomatic for 4 years or more.

Literature from reliable sources states are all over the map regarding infection rates. What I would be concerned about is this: many people lose their boids to RI, septicemia and other chronic infections that people have been programmed to not associated with IBD. Therefore many of the animals potentially carrying and succumbing to the disease are never positively diagnosed.

Additionally, animals that do die and display "classic" neurological symptoms are sometimes assumed to have IBD when they don't. The fact is that for many hobbyists, doing a necropsy to positively identify the disease is financially onerous.

After talking to vets and other hobbyists who have lost animals to this disease, my opinion (and it's my opinion only) is that it's more prevalent than many people think. The fact that boas can go asymptomatic for so long is troubling, the fact that many animals have died from it without it being diagnosed is disturbing and the fact that most hobbyists have been conditioned to only look for the neurological symptoms insures that it will be many more years before we have a handle on how severe the situation is.

In the meantime, I am done adding boas to my collection as a six month or one year quarantine, according to some vets and researchers, may not suffice. Any pythons or colubrids that I add are quarantined for 6 months, as again, there are credible and verifiable reports of pythons hanging in for longer than the "few weeks" reported on many forums.

I am too attached to my animals to risk their health over adding one more snake to the collection. Until there is reliable and accurate testing, effective treatment or affordable detection methods I'll wait to get that Caulker Cay boa I want so bad.

[JTR]

thanks...the truth sucks sometimes, but there is no sense in putting what you already love in danger

[starmom]

I've got boas and ball pythons. I keep them in different rooms of the house and have separate feeding utensils for each group.
When I want to handle the snakes, I handle the balls first and then the boas.
When it's feeding day, I feed the balls first and then the boas.
I don't really believe that this is a very big deal unless you house them together, do not implement a long qt time, obtain your boas from an unreliable source, and/or have sloppy husbandry skills.
Just my two cents!!

[Skiploder]

I've got boas and ball pythons. I keep them in different rooms of the house and have separate feeding utensils for each group.
When I want to handle the snakes, I handle the balls first and then the boas.
When it's feeding day, I feed the balls first and then the boas.
I don't really believe that this is a very big deal unless you house them together, do not implement a long qt time, obtain your boas from an unreliable source, and/or have sloppy husbandry skills.
Just my two cents!!

Be very careful on what you recommend.

Theories on transmission include that it may be airborne.

Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:


Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms

50% of those tested?

Recommending a quarantine period on a disease that many never manifest any symptoms (in the case of boas) is pointless. While the animal is quietly carrying the disease without any outward signs, it can be infecting other animals.

Several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections.

Most people have gotten incorrect information about IBD from unreliable or inaccurate sources. I would suggest that anyone interested in what is currently known about the disease research Dr. Jacobson's work at UF.

[starmom]

Be very careful on what you recommend.

Theories on transmission include that it may be airborne.

Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:


Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms

50% of those tested?

Recommending a quarantine period on a disease that many never manifest any symptoms (in the case of boas) is pointless. While the animal is quietly carrying the disease without any outward signs, it can be infecting other animals.

Several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections.

Most people have gotten incorrect information about IBD from unreliable or inaccurate sources. I would suggest that anyone interested in what is currently known about the disease research Dr. Jacobson's work at UF.

"Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection..." Wow, that's harsh.

I appreciate your passion for the welfare of snakes of different species being kept housed in one building.

I have learned from this forum, and several others, that ball pythons die from IBD very quickly after exposure to the virus. I feel okay that by practicing a long QT period and enacting very good husbandry skills, tragedy can be avoided.

I would really like to talk to the "...several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections..." to ascertain further information regarding this issue.

As for information coming out of the UofF, I do try to stay on top of it. Since I am in graduate school, I have access to several databases that permit an in-depth search and retrieval of research papers. I believe that perhaps I am not one of your "most people" who are receiving incorrect and/or unreliable information.

Again, your passion is right on and appreciated. However, I take issue with your vast generalizations, globalizations, and accusations.

[Wh00h0069]

Just buy from a reptuable breeder.

[Skiploder]

"Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection..." Wow, that's harsh.

It's not directed at you, it's directed at the OP or anyone else who is weighing the odds of adding to their collection vs. the risk of IBD. Let's leave it at that and let's not make this a personal issue between the two of us.

I have learned from this forum, and several others, that ball pythons die from IBD very quickly after exposure to the virus. I feel okay that by practicing a long QT period and enacting very good husbandry skills, tragedy can be avoided.

Great. Some people have documented p.regius hanging on for much longer after being positively diagnosed with the disease. Again, snakes don't last long after the onset of neurological symptoms. The timeline between death and the onset of less obvious symptoms is often times not as quick.

Not to beat a dead horse but why even recommend a quarantine period when the disease can be asymptomatic for years in boas? Let's agree perhaps that with pythons species, a quarantine is probably effective.........for boas - probably not.

As far as husbandry skills go; since the exact transmission method is in doubt - what husbandry skills are effective? Collections without mites have been wiped out. Collections where the owners have used sanitizing agents have been decimated. While I agree that practicing good hygeine, cleaning routines and parasite maintenance is critical in eliminating pathogens from a collection, what benefit do they have if IBD can be transmitted via the air?

I would really like to talk to the "...several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections..." to ascertain further information regarding this issue.

As for information coming out of the UofF, I do try to stay on top of it. Since I am in graduate school, I have access to several databases that permit an in-depth search and retrieval of research papers. I believe that perhaps I am not one of your "most people" who are receiving incorrect and/or unreliable information.

Again, your passion is right on and appreciated. However, I take issue with your vast generalizations, globalizations, and accusations.

Nowhere did I imply that you were. If I did - my sincere apologies. In terms of generalizations and accusations - read into it what you will. Facts are facts - all of the transmission routes are still to be confirmed...............boas can be asymptomatic for years.......................people aren't screening their animals...........reliable and cost effective screening methods aren't really available for live animals..............and the symptoms can be subtle and wide ranging. If those facts are general and too global - so be it. If you think I'm accusing you of anything, well, that was not my intent.

I made the comment that you should be careful as to what you recommend, and I still think you should be careful on what you recommend - especially when it comes to adding boas to a python collection.

The OP asked a question. I gave him as thorough an answer as I possibly could. You are, of course, free to disagree. However, if you think you are being singled out or attacked - you're not.

[ohyeahnow]

Starmom, I am glad that you have sucessfully kept boas and pythons without problems. Using care as you do goes a long way. IBD is not fully understood as far as all the means of transmission go, and airborn transmission has been discussed in research as a possible cause, as has ability of boas to be carriers showing no signs. Since you have acess to data bases as I myself do at the local university perhaps you could do some research and help educate us all. Thanks for your input. I am happy you have healthy snakes and practice good husbandry.

Here is one journal article I found and an excerpt:

"Because
boas may be asymptomatic carriers, some authors advise that
pythons should not be kept together with boas, or even in the
same collection (Bennett 1996, Keeble 2004)." https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

The references for this article will provide anyone interested with acess to journal databases a lot of peer reviewed journal articles for education.

[Skiploder]

I was not able to get the edit completely finished and wanted to add:

Most of the bad information is coming from other vets. I can provide links to sites where vets other than Jacobson are stating things about the disease that are just plain wrong. Kaplan is a perfect example....

This information makes it to forums where it is repeated and spread.

Let me relate my experience with IBD:

One of my dwarf boas went through a recent period of anorexia. I have had this animal for almost 5 years. After running blood tests, x-rays, etc. no abnormalities could be found. He was losing quite a bit of weight and had gone from 1200 grams to 900 grams in a short period of time.

The blood panel was tested for IBD - and came back negative. However, after consultation with the vet, it was decided that a liver biopsy may provide a better shot at discovering an IBD infection.

The liver biopsy came back negative. In the meantime, the snake began showing signs of septicemia.

After consulting with other vets, it was determined that even a negative liver biopsy can be inconclusive for ruling out IBD - as perhaps the inclusion cells (if infected) may be in the brain, or another organ. The snake was put on flagyl for the septicemia with the hopes of also stimulating his appetite.

In the meantime, he was also put in the "isolation ward" apart from the rest of my animals - where he remains to this day. As this was occuring, both my male ball python, one of my male womas and all of my male antaresia went on hunger strikes. All of my colubrids were still eating fine.

At this point, my fear was that it was undiagnosed IBD and had spread to my collection. Fortunately, the males ate again once out of sensory range of the females.

Per consultation with my vet and a local university, all of my boas are to remain in quarantine until we can see whether or not these symptoms progress. We are also keeping constant watch on the pythons for signs of subclinical infections.

I walked into this situation thinking that since I bleached and chloro'd everything and practiced proper quarantine procedures that IBD was not a concern for me. I have so far learned otherwise. I learned that even though my boa has gone 5 years with no symptoms he could be a carrier. I learned that despite a biopsy and two blood panels - he still can't be deemed clean. I also learned that my pythons are probably okay, but if infected that they don't necessarily die quickly as I had been led to believe.

I have spent over a grand in vet bills. While that is a small price to pay compared to those who have lost their beloved animals, a small nagging part of me is worried that we're not out of the woods yet. I've got several vets involved who are still worried that it's IBD - and it makes me sick to my stomach to contemplate having to put down my beloved pets.

So when I caution people to think long and hard before adding to their boid collection and to read all of the research available, I do it not to scare - but to hopefully shed some light on the potential consequences of not being fully informed.