are these balls worth this price asked?

[Pythonman]

Even the big dog breeders who spay/neuter all pets before homing, and have strict rules, regulations and contracts for adopters of unaltered animals, still occasionally end up with their lines being used by yucky breeders. No matter what you do, you cannot guarantee the lives of your animals once they leave your home.

EXACTLY!!!!!!, but they make the effort to write the contracts and attempt to protect their lines..and they will tell a family or person looking to buy their puppies that they cannot if they do not think the person is right for the dog, They'll choose to turn down $$$ in order to make sure each of their puppies goes to a GOOD HOME, not just one with "albino" money...and yes I do think that if people didn't mass produce these things there would be less of them in dirty cages...do you really need hundreds of albinos, pieds, whatever...I doubt it but you want the $$$...so yes big breeders share some of the responsibility...and no it's not ONE question. THAT is your problem...It wouldn't be an easy fix and so you wouldn't do it and would require a little more work on the side of the breeder, which snake breeders aren't willing to do...It would have to be a line of questions, poss a phone or in person interview, a reference or two god forbid from a vet saying this person takes good care of his current and past animals....No you can not guarantee the lives once they leave your home, but you don't have to sell them to the old biker guy with a beard who clearly has no clue what he's doing...but you want his $$ and you'll worry about what he does with his snake later..Somebody had the first pieds, albinos, mojave, whatever and they sold it to someone who mass produced them and now the price dropped, there all over, and in the hands of irresponsible breeders..I remember as a kid hearing how rare and expensive the albino ball pythons were.Talk about taking advantage of a group of animals..People must have bought multiple houses off those things...And when you make that kind of money on something it's in your best interest as well as that of the entire bp species to be very selective picking sellers with rare animals..And don't yoiu think it's respectful of the species to find GOOD homes, not just homes with "albino" money....YES I think it's about time big breeders stop pointing fingers unless its at each other and start accepting that the reason there are so many BP's in bad conditions is bc THEY mass produced them...I know for a fact that no big breeders look into where their snakes are going in any kind of real way...Someone emails them, paypals them, and they send the snake...

Sputnik,
Make all the excuses for them that you want...They have time to scrutinize their perspective buyers...and if they don't then they need to rethink their business plan. You dont see people with Best In Show Dogs asking how many females their dog can inseminate in one seasons to "maximize" their male hahha.. they protect their lines..The way the BP world is today it probably is unreasnable to ask them to look into all their buyers...but thats because as you all have shown, it's accpeptable to sell to any old joe. You're selling "in good faith" lol! Wake up...Thats called..."Im selling it and I don't want to be responsible for what happens once it leaves my hands"....And it is a free country and you have the RIGHT to sell/conduct business with whomever you choose to, but you also have the right to refuse to sell...remember those signs, no shirt, no shoes, no service...ya thats because as long as it's not based on race, religion, or gender you can refuse to sell your snakes to someone for whatever reason you want, especially if you think they will not be a good home for your snake...thats the true meaning of a free country..


I"M SORRY FOR EXPECTING MORE FROM THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF BP WORLD INSTEAD OF THOSE OUTSIDE THE GATES WAITING TO GET INTO BP WORLD!!!!
Very easy to point fingers and play the "well I didn't know he was an irresponsible breeder" game. Much harder to take responsibility for your actions and the sales you CHOSE to make.

And just for the record..I've never said it's ok to sell or leave animals in dirty cages...My cages are always clean in my house, but to say that the guy shouldn't go drive and check out a good deal he saw on craigslist is crazy for me..esp if he knows BP's and can pick out a good deal from a scam...Pictures and words are not all that we have..we have phones and refrerences!! these are soooo much better for picking out places to potentially get your snakes. Get them on the phone see how fast the answers come, does he studder, or do anything else that makes you think he's being less that tuthful..Then find a reference that you TRULY trust...If you can't...then don't buy...

[rabernet]

What's your definition of mass producing? How many is mass producing? I've been to some big breeders. Besides a few clutches of any given morph, they didn't have HUNDREDS of a single morph produced, they had maybe 20 of each produced (and that was on the high end). They didn't have walls and walls of albinos or walls and walls of pastels or walls and walls of cinnies, etc.

Hell, the enchi that's in my avatar came from a big breeder - they had 10 enchis they produced that year. Ten of them - hardly mass producing them. I know there were 10, because I visited and spent time working in their facility for a week and hand picked this animal from their available enchi's.

That's not very massive in my book. Ball pythons don't breed like rabbits, or even puppies.

You seem to have a big grudge against big breeders - why is this? How many do you personally know well enough, as well as their business practices so intimately, to make such broad sweeping generalizations against them?

Why ARE you so angry at them?

[Pythonman]

haha just out of curiosity...why is ARE capitalized in that last sentence...I would think why or you would be a better choice...anywho...I'm not naming names but I've dealt with my fair share of breeders...big and small...by no means are all the big breeders bad..I've dealt with a couple very good ones...and I know some guard their projects better than others...it's easier for people to diversify their collection these days but at one point people were making as many albinos as possible, becasue thats all there was..and as the new ones came in you bet they mass produced them as much as possible...I'm not saying they don't care for these animals, but I do think SOME responsiblity lies with the breeders and I can believe that no breeder feels responsible for the people they send their "little babies" that they "love so much." I don't expect anything to ever change, but that doesn't remove the fact that overbreeding is why prices drop...it's why animals nd up in bad conditions etc... If their were 10 people with albino ball pythons all 10 would be taken care of like kings...the more there are the less people respect and care about them...I'm not saying that this is me..I love all animals..work at a vets office, always have loved all animals...but as more are created and more go up for sale and the prices go down, the general care by people who don't truly love the animals will fall..especially those bought for a quick profit...I just admit to myself that technically its the overbreeding that did this...I pass down shady buyers of my animals...both because I'm worried about being robbed and because I think it's good for the species to be in good hands... Do i do a FULL background check as I said...Obviously not and thats because the system is already as broken as it will ever be...and I don't hav anything that 100 other idiots have also..so i have nothing to protect...

That said I'm not saying ALL big breeders are terrible...and I'm definitely not saying they're terrible people...I'm sure most of them are great people...it's the animal world...big hearts...not my point...My point is just that they should take some of the blame for what's wrong in the industry as well...Even the ones I know and like don't look into the people buying their snakes the way they should...that doesn't mean that the second the snake leaves your hands you're not responsible...you made the snake you sold the snake...if it's now sitting in urine..if the snake could think the snake would blame you just as much as those who didn't clean his cage...because you put him on this earth and sold him...but thats my opinion...and I'm entitled to it...sorry if it bugs everyone!!!

[Adam_Wysocki]

I still for the life of me can't figure out why you feel that it's ok to ramble on and on about big breeders mass producing and being all about the money and buying houses and exploiting animals and whatever else you have a chip on your shoulder about, but you won't say that the person who posted those animals for sale should have taken out two seconds to clean that tub before they took that picture.

It's really unbelievable to me.

You can blame anyone you want ... big breeders, mass producers, Petco, PETA, the CIA, whoever ... but the bottom line is that there is NO EXCUSE for not taking two seconds to change a paper towel before taking a picture. That was the owner of those animals responsibility ... no one elses.

And for whatever it's worth, if there was a big breeder there when that picture was taken, I'm sure that tub would have gotten clean ... at least if it was any of the big breeders that I know.

-adam

[Pythonman]

Of course he should have cleaned it! Thats not what I said...you're very good at putting words in my mouth...what I did say was that I would not completely rule him out...there are OTHER FACTORS...its a risk to buy from him and thats not a good sign but there are other things to look for like say a good phone conversation, the ability to come see the snakes in person is huge, and as I said before references, lotsof them...how about asking him why the cage is dirty and when the picture is from?...why is he selling them so cheap?...Like I said I keep my cages clean, but thats my business...should the cage have been cleaned..obviouslllyy! When I take pictures for animals I do it as professionally as I can, obvisouly in clean cages..I never said snakes should live in urine...go back and read what i said ...all I've argued about that picture is that it does not completely rule him out...especially if I can come see them and where he keeps his animals..since it was a craigslist ad....I just don't think I need to spend top dollar when perfectly good snakes are often produced by people that arent running a large scale breeding opperation...maybe its dirty because theyre new and they don't realize what a big deal that is to many people maybe because they don't care..but alot more goes into my decision making than that picture...if it was FILTHY I'd understand...but it's a little pee...I'd investigate more....The only animals I'm all about going to big breeders for are hets...bc you have years of time to find out what you've really been sold..otherwise I like to buy from the little guy if he checks out in my book...and if he needs some advice on how to present his snakes and what a big deal some people make over taking a picture before cleaning the cage, I'm happy to give it...my initial response is not to shun people..I try to give them the benefit of the doubt...and I've never been scammed in the reptile world and I've been doing this for about 4 years and have done well over 100 sales/trades/purchases...you just have to be able to read people, do your homework, and know what you're getting into...if you do that you can give people the initial benefit of the doubt, because you're not impulse buying based on a picture, theres much much more...

[Sputnik]

I would suggest we all stop responding to pythonman who is clearly here to argue for nothing more then the sake of arguing to keep himself in the lime light.... which is his only objective I think.