Just wanted to say I am not attacking anyone elses practice...I just enjoy discussing topics like this on a respectful level... i t advances my own thinking, and I often learn something new...So no offense intended by any means in my comments.
"I check on my snake room at all hours of the day and night."
I seriously doubt you are monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day. Come on now...
You may check them at any hour of the day, but I would bet anything you are not monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day and night...Don't you sleep?
"I disagree. Unless we have a large room where we can use HPS and MH lighting on constantly adjusted timers, Underground burrows, no contact from humans, natural substrate, streams, an ecosystem of naturally sustainable natural prey items, etc., we can't provide them with a natural environment. Putting them in large cages is not the next best thing in my opinion. Once we take these animals out of the wild and put them in private collections, we have a resposibility to give them everything they need, and take care of them to the best of our current knowledge and ability. While a 41qt tub, or even a 96 qt tub might allow us to do this, I don't think that my ball pythons "hate their lives" any more, being in 28 qt tubs. "
In every other area of the herping hobby I have explored, I have found it is a constant goal to mimic the natural environment of the animal you are keeping as much
as possible. We will never recreate nature in a cage...but that is the goal. Maybe my "hating life" phrase was not the right one to use, but knowing that at night they do become active, and will explore as part of their natural behavior (I see it every night), I think we should provide the area to do such. I personally don't know if we should keep an animal that will move and explore, in an environment where that is not an option at some fair level. We keep pointing out that they spend "Most" of their time burrowed away like the conditions we recreate in tubs, but are we forgetting that most of the time is not all of the time, and that they do become active and roam at night? Because they don't need room to roam in order to see them eat, poop and shed, does not mean we are providing them the optimal living conditions in a small tub.
Some find keeping animals captive unethical all together. I personally believe that if you are able to provide an area that mimics their natural environment for them to thrive and exercise natural behaviors then I personally don't find it unethical.
" Mental health is reserved for animals capable of a thought processes more complicated than a python has. You are anthropomorphising these animals here."
Correction...I was not "anthropomorphising" these animals, While we tend to think that us humans are above all other animals... "mental health" is not strictly human... It is something present in any animal with a brain, whether it is apparent to us humans or not.
Why do we love to sell Reptiles short? What about stress? Fish, Reptiles, cats, dogs, can all become stressed from living conditions, even while being provided everything necessary to live healthy. Animals die all the time of sress related illnesses. Not just physical stress like from temperature or trauma, but mental stress, like to much handling, other naturally solitary dominant animals in view. It wears a lot on animals. While I think that the signs of stress may not be as apparent in snakes as they are in other herps like Chameleons or Geckos, there is no doubt in my mind they can be stressed about their surroundings. While their brains are more primative than ours, we can't assume them incapable of mental satisfaction.
"People need room to excersise. Dogs need room to excersise. Kingsnakes need a large enclosure that allows them to stretch out, climb, and cruise around. Ball pythons simply don't need big enclosures, and it can be argued that keeping them in large enclosures can be dentrimental to them in plenty of circumstances. The same cannot honestly be said, at this point, about keeping balls in smaller tubs of appropriate size to meet their basic needs."
Again convenience came in. It is
easier for us to monitor temperature and humidity in smaller tubs. Just because it is tougher to monitor this in a bigger enclosure does not mean that it can't be done, or it shouldn't be done, or that a BP prefers a smaller bin. Tubs benefit the keeper; because a perfectly sound large enlosure is absolutely possible, just more of a challenge. If anything with tubs you are sacrificing the room that they would use to roam at night if allowed, for the keepers convenience of saving space and ease of monitoring the environment.
Originally Posted by SoCaliSon
Just wanted to say I am not attacking anyone elses practice...I just enjoy discussing topics like this on a respectful level... i t advances my own thinking, and I often learn something new...So no offense intended by any means in my comments.
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