Snakes, dogs, cats, horses-- anthropomorphism

[ZinniaZ]

I have read a few threads on this forum about snakes not having emotions, not having preference for their owners or liking their owners and the general thought seems to be that they operate on instinct alone and prefer to rest, eat, drink, make babies, etc.

I am not sure I completely agree. I think they do get used to and feel secure with their owners and may even be entertained when handled, that handling is not a negative expereince for them *necessarily*. I think we do not know what they feel, think, or experience, but we can watch their behavior. My snake is relaxed with me but not with strangers. What do I conclude from that? Well, the snake apparently knows my scent and knows I am not a threat. Does that translate to "liking" me? I don't know. I don't know that we have to define things in those terms. But I am not averse to the idea that a reptile can prefer certain people or that a reptile can enjoy things. We don't know. I guess you could say I am an agnostic about reptile emotions. I can't prove they exist or that they don't and so I watch and observe and I am open to what I can learn.

So, on to other critters. Do you who strongly believe that reptiles cannot have preference for their humans, etc-- do you believe that dogs, cats, horses, etc have emotions?

[ZinniaZ]

I wanted to add a little more. MAYBE when we define our own emotions we are ignoring the instinctive more primiticve repsonses in US that are at the base of our emotions. Think about it. Who do you like? Who are your friends? Is it possible that feelings of security and survival are at the basis of our preferences too? What about things we dislike? or people? Is dislike of another person rooted in fear, lack of security, worry about change? Is dislike just a response to perceived threat? Do WE have emotions?

If we look at emotions in humans, I think we often are reacting based on instinct. So does that mean our emotions are not seperate from instinct and survival? Or does it mean that insticnt and survival create emotional reactions? I do not think emotion is exclusive to humans. I think emotion is a response to instinct and that other animals do have it. They may not experience it the same way we do, but in my own observations, I see it.

So, somebody argue with me. Or strongly agree. Or something.

[littleindiangirl]

I wanted to add a little more. MAYBE when we define our own emotions we are ignoring the instinctive more primiticve repsonses in US that are at the base of our emotions. Think about it. Who do you like? Who are your friends? Is it possible that feelings of security and survival are at the basis of our preferences too? What about things we dislike? or people? Is dislike of another person rooted in fear, lack of security, worry about change? Is dislike just a response to perceived threat? Do WE have emotions?

If we look at emotions in humans, I think we often are reacting based on instinct.

What you've mostly said is neat I suppose. But, I do have to point out that psychology does not recognize humans as having instincts, but rather drives.

I think this is the same old story as ever.

And knowing that there are several other threads on this subject, you chose to create a new one?

[littleindiangirl]

Here is one of my own favorite posts...

Do we have to tag such specific words like "love" and "commitment" to a snake when it would easily fit in the category of "I feel no stress with you" or "you stress me the flip out"

Again, I still stand by my opinion that any behavior from a snake can be put into one of two broad categories of: Fear or secure.
I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

If a snake feels secure and safe around you, then take the compliment. I dont think you should try and complicate it by labeling it as affection or love. Even in the simplest sense, I don't think they have any emotions. That doesnt mean it's a robot, it's able to make its own decisions, but that doesn't mean it's "reasoning" things out

And to add to it

On the topic of DOGS!

Cesar Milan, one of my favorites, explains that no matter what you think, your dog does not love you unconditionally. Wow, never truer words spoken! When he pees on the couch, he's not thinking about what he's putting you through emotionally. He's not thinking about the disappointment you have in him, but he DOES know that if he pees on the carpet, he will be punished for it.

Is there such a thing as unconditional love? Is it something you feel, or an idea you put in your own head?




Also...

When does open-minded cross over into gullibility?

Can snakes feel emotions? I've seen no evidence to suggest that.

[tigerlily]

Not to mention you are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing domesticated mammals to a nondomesticated reptile.

[littleindiangirl]

On that note, what is the defining common fold in domesticated animals? What is the key to domesticating any animal?

Is it their capacity to learn new behaviors?

[tigerlily]

Here's a link to the wiki on domestication... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication

[ZinniaZ]

Not to mention you are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing domesticated mammals to a nondomesticated reptile.

Well, that is why I posted this thread-- I wanted to see if the collective "y'all" see a difference in the supposed emotions of reptiles, domesticated animals, and humans. Anthropomorphism is one of my favorite discussions. I am not seeing any threads comparing snake instincts to say, the instincts of cats. I wonder if there is a difference really.

I wonder if labelling our own emotions even is useful or if we waste our time thinking about our emotions and should be thinking instead in terms of survival, security, and stress. Solve those-- solve emotions?

[ZinniaZ]

Wow-- I never thought my dogs had unconditional love. About the only creature I know of that unconditionally loves is a newborn infant for its mother. And that goes away...

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl View Post
Do we have to tag such specific words like "love" and "commitment" to a snake when it would easily fit in the category of "I feel no stress with you" or "you stress me the flip out"

Again, I still stand by my opinion that any behavior from a snake can be put into one of two broad categories of: Fear or secure.
I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

If a snake feels secure and safe around you, then take the compliment. I dont think you should try and complicate it by labeling it as affection or love. Even in the simplest sense, I don't think they have any emotions. That doesnt mean it's a robot, it's able to make its own decisions, but that doesn't mean it's "reasoning" things out

I agree with everything you have said here-- BUT-- I disagree with your conclusion because I think we label emotions incorrectly. Emotions are just reactions. They are not reasonable or reasoned responses. We attach words and reason to our emotions in an attempt to define them and to define ourselves. But they are not reasoned at all. Anger and hatred come from stark fear and threat. The fear and the feeling of being threatened are not responses that we reason through and the anger that results follows close on the heels of the fear.

I am saying the labels we put even on our OWN emotions are just manufactured. We name our emotions because we can talk but the emotions exist without any reasoning ability on our part as reactions. In the same way, other animals have reactions which we then try to label based on our own experience. We can call them emotions or not. I am trying to get at teh fact that we do not even adequately understand our human emotions. I do not think labelling emotions makes them any different. What we DO with the thought process following an emotion is different and involves reasoning. But the first reactions are perhaps very similar to the reactioncs of animals. Maybe I am making no sense at all.

[littleindiangirl]

Wow-- I never thought my dogs had unconditional love. About the only creature I know of that unconditionally loves is a newborn infant for its mother. And that goes away...

Funny. I find infants to be incredibly selfish.