ASFR's and weight gain

[Mike Cavanaugh]

don't let this thread die! How can we get more info on this?


Another interesting note... since I have switched to ASF's, I have found that my snakes poop less often, and when they do, they are perfect poops. No scientific data here... just an observation. I am guessing it is because I raised the asf's myself, and they are fed correctly... but maybe it is something else???

[Fearless]

As far as a study goes would it be possible to get some somewhat more accurate data using twins vs clutches. Would that not be the more micro way of getting a basic idea vs waiting years and years on a larger study, still nothing would be set in stone but it would give a more basic idea of whether this hypothesis has any basis. Thinking it would take some of the genetic variences out of the equation of which snake is going to be large and which one isn't. And the only reason I suggest twins is that half of my 07 babies are rather large and some just dont seem to be getting anywhere in a hurry and they are all fed equal sized rat pups, the same day from the same litter.

I personally have several of my smaller 06 females on asf only diets just to see if they catch up per se to the larger 06 females.

[frankykeno]

Their build, especialy the females after giving birth is very muscular and healthy. My females are all having back to back to back to back to back litters, and after every single litter, they are a little bigger, a little fatter, and overall a little more healthy looking.


mike

You know I've noted that too Mike. Every single one of my female ASF's, even with back to back breeding, nursing one litter whilst carrying another - grows significantly bigger after each litter. The size difference from first pregnancy to first weaning is well...pretty impressive and immediate.

My gut instinct is that it's two things at work, one is hormonal, the other is about colony dynamics and dominance. From what I've seen the females run the place. One female is the dominant animal and generally the most prolific breeder or the first female to have a litter in the group. The other females rank below her and the male below them. She runs the place, eats first, disciplines the other females and the lone adult male. If she's in a "mood", every ASF is hyper aware of her.

Something in the hormones of birthing seem to push an immediate size growth in these females. Perhaps it's nature's way of acknowledging this is good breeding female and making sure she can handle the pressures physically of back to back birthings. The female dominance allows them to access food first so that adds to the mix to allow them to stay big and hardy despite the rigors of constant production of offspring. Their colony system where the male, older offspring and other females assist in communal infant care would only help these females to stay in top shape for their vital role in the group.

As far as how this affects our snakes, I cannot say having not done any sort of study on it. I will say our Danu, a snake taken in as a gravid WC who had not eaten in the year following her laying of eggs has gone from 800 grams to almost back to full health very quickly on a diet of ASF's. It does seem to be faster than Saoirse, another WC rescue adult, gained on regular rats (she's been switched to ASF's too now and is loving them) but that's just too small a sampling to say anything with any certainty.

[kc261]

I'm not sure twins would be the best subjects for a study. They tend to start out very small so the data might not even translate to more BPs. Also they are relatively few and far between. It would probably be quicker and easier to get a reasonably large amount of data on non-twin BPs, than it would be to get enough data from twin BPs to count for anything.

An interesting thought on this... on a corn snake forum I've read where people seem pretty convinced that slitting the skin of the prey before feeding causes the snake to gain weight faster. One person even did a small but pretty convincing study on it. Now, a few years later, some of the same people still believe that it causes faster growth, but are beginning to wonder if the growth is TOO FAST to be healthy. I could dig up some links if anyone is interested.

[FIREball]

don't let this thread die! How can we get more info on this?


Another interesting note... since I have switched to ASF's, I have found that my snakes poop less often, and when they do, they are perfect poops. No scientific data here... just an observation. I am guessing it is because I raised the asf's myself, and they are fed correctly... but maybe it is something else???

Less poop = more retained weight, perhaps we are on to something.

[patenaud]

I thought my BPs who were on ASFs were growing at the same rate (or a little quicker) than my frozen rat feeders...until I took a closer look at my feeding charts only to realize that I was actually feeding them more often than the frozen rat feeders due to them being readily available. (As you know they multiply fairly well!)

Having said that, my 2007 het. toffee male and female that are on ASFs and are both over 800 grams (Female is 900 grams) but a much leaner 800-900 grams than my 2007 frozen rat eaters. They're not as "soft" and feel allot harder.

Maybe this could somehow be attributed to the quality of the meat?

Denis
DenJenn Reptiles
www.pythonregius.ca

[twh]

i've noticed that also.i have a 07 3.4 group that i hatched out and have been fed ASF's and they are very firm to the touch,even though this clutch was hard to get going they are between 550 - 750 grams.

other clutches from the same time on rats/mice seem softer and weight a bit less.interesting obersevations.have fun!