Rats Share mothering!

[Gloryhound]

We currently have two females housed together that were together with the same male before he moved on. One delivered babies shortly after he left making us believe she may have been pregnant when we got her. The other looks about ready to explode any day. The first one had 9 pups and so far all are still alive after 10 days. Now here is where it gets interesting, the first week the actual mom would not let the other one have anything to do with the babies. After that one day we look in and see the prego nursing all the babies while mom is lounging under the feeder, I guess she decided to take a break. Now it looks like they share the litter as they have built one nest and both sit in it and the babies just move from one to the next!

My question is since the other one has not given birth yet is this a problem?

How long before a rat gives birth does it start to produce milk?

Thanks!

[frankykeno]

I would assume (having never really studied this part of rat care) that like any mammal, rats will get their milk coming in just prior to actually giving birth. Also like most mammals, active nursing by young will trigger milk production. It's been shown even in human females that have adopted infants, that we can begin to produce milk in a limited way, without ever having been pregnant in the first place, simply by the action of a constantly nursing baby.

[kc261]

I would assume (having never really studied this part of rat care) that like any mammal, rats will get their milk coming in just prior to actually giving birth. Also like most mammals, active nursing by young will trigger milk production. It's been shown even in human females that have adopted infants, that we can begin to produce milk in a limited way, without ever having been pregnant in the first place, simply by the action of a constantly nursing baby.

Actually, from my knowledge on the subject (which isn't expert by any means), I don't think the phrase "in a limited way" is very accurate here. I've heard that many women who decide to breastfeed an adopted baby are able to produce enough milk that their baby does not need other supplements. It does take more time and effort to build up the milk supply than if the woman had been pregnant. There are also many who aren't able to produce enough to be a complete diet, but it may still be a very significant amount of milk. I think it is tremendously cool that this is not only possible, but can be extremely successful.

Anyway, back to rats. I agree with Joanna's assumption that the pregnant rat is almost certainly producing milk at this point, and even if she weren't there might be a pacifier type of effect.

I do think there is some concern for the unborn babies. I think it may have been Connie who posted a link recently to some studies about this, and if I recall, it said that if there is much difference in age between the babies, the younger litter will suffer because a nursing mother's nipples are changed by nursing, and if she has 2 week old babies (using that as an example, I don't remember specific ages if they were mentioned) nursing on her when her own young are born, the tiny newborns may not be able to latch on properly to the nipples that have adjusted to the stronger suck of the older pups. Maybe Connie or whoever it was can find this for us again.

Also, getting back to what I know from my breastfeeding days, nursing causes the production of pitocin which is the same hormone used to induce labor. So I guess it could possibly cause a premature delivery.

It sounds like neither one of these would be a problem as long as the 2 mothers were very close in their due date, but I'm really just speculating. I'd love to hear someone with more concrete knowledge chime in. Or for those who do the group mothering thing with their rats, in your experience does it appear to cause problems if the first litter starts nursing on the still pregnant mom? And how much difference in delivery dates do you usually have?

[Hathor]

Hi. I'm Gloryhound's wife....Rat update: While yesterday both females were lying next to each other on a joint nest sharing the babies, now it seems the original mom seems to be resentful of the pregnant mom taking her babies. She steals them back from prego every chance she gets. And prego doesn't seem to want to let her. It seems like there is a constant battle of dominance with regards to the babies and who gets to care for them. I am hoping prego gives birth soon, so she'll have her own babies to keep her occupied.

[littleindiangirl]

Actually, from my knowledge on the subject (which isn't expert by any means), I don't think the phrase "in a limited way" is very accurate here. I've heard that many women who decide to breastfeed an adopted baby are able to produce enough milk that their baby does not need other supplements. It does take more time and effort to build up the milk supply than if the woman had been pregnant. There are also many who aren't able to produce enough to be a complete diet, but it may still be a very significant amount of milk. I think it is tremendously cool that this is not only possible, but can be extremely successful.

Anyway, back to rats. I agree with Joanna's assumption that the pregnant rat is almost certainly producing milk at this point, and even if she weren't there might be a pacifier type of effect.

I do think there is some concern for the unborn babies. I think it may have been Connie who posted a link recently to some studies about this, and if I recall, it said that if there is much difference in age between the babies, the younger litter will suffer because a nursing mother's nipples are changed by nursing, and if she has 2 week old babies (using that as an example, I don't remember specific ages if they were mentioned) nursing on her when her own young are born, the tiny newborns may not be able to latch on properly to the nipples that have adjusted to the stronger suck of the older pups. Maybe Connie or whoever it was can find this for us again.

Also, getting back to what I know from my breastfeeding days, nursing causes the production of pitocin which is the same hormone used to induce labor. So I guess it could possibly cause a premature delivery.

It sounds like neither one of these would be a problem as long as the 2 mothers were very close in their due date, but I'm really just speculating. I'd love to hear someone with more concrete knowledge chime in. Or for those who do the group mothering thing with their rats, in your experience does it appear to cause problems if the first litter starts nursing on the still pregnant mom? And how much difference in delivery dates do you usually have?

Yup that was me that posted it, I can find the article again if you'd like.

[Gloryhound]

Well the second mom delivered! All the new babies were killed and ate except one that was just killed. Not sure which killed them any ideas?


Also the first litter was 5 girls and 4 boys which is now down to 5 girls and 2 boys. Hey our little snakes have to eat!

[SatanicIntention]

Separate the mother rats... Sounds like someone was very stressed out.. Communal mothering generally doesn't work out well.

[Gloryhound]

We seperated them right after finding this out. I think building a maturnatiy ward is needed. More space taken, Oh well.

[jkobylka]

I did the who communal nursing thing for a while, putting several moms in a tub together. I got really tired of babies getting eaten or neglected. After moving to the one mom per tub maternity rack my product is massively higher and everyone seems happier.

Justin

[Fearless]

I on the other had have had very good luck with communal mothering, seems like about every tenth litter or so i will find two females who will try to "steal" babies. Actually watched them circle around a tub when one mother would go get a baby the other would hurry and go get the one she had stolen so they moved rats from one litter to the other and back for several minutes. But have noticed that when two mothers are in the groove that they both share the duties well enough that neither mother ever looks as exhausted as i have seen with one mother with a decent sized litter. Another aspect i like about doing it this way is some first time mothers bodies just dont seem to handle the draw of babies as well as older females, and so its much easier to adopt these babies onto more suitable mothers.