More mud in the debate over WC Gravids

[rabernet]

So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ball pythons are protected by CITES. If the CITES authorities believed that ball pythons were being captured to extinction in the wild, and did not have sustainable populations, wouldn't they adjust the number of animals that were allowed to be exported?

[PythonWallace]

I see what Wes is saying. The snakes are going to be collected and sold, whether it is to the American and European pet hobby or the Asian food market. From what I understand, Ghana is pretty good about keeping the natural population up, while Togo and Benin aren't very concerned about having the ball python trade as a sustainable resource. On the other hand, the snakes being collected are coming from a pretty small locality in all three countries, so even with stripping these areas dry there are still major untapped areas where BPs are abundant. I don't personally have a problem with people importing snakes for the pet trade. I'd like to see a new morph or two unveiled here every year for as long as possible, and I'd definitely rather see these snakes at a local reptile show than in a can of snake meat in Vietnam. I do find the idea of buying a couple of gravid females in an attempt to hit a morph lottery to be a waste of time and money, but to each his own.

[Brimstone111888]

I see what Wes is saying. The snakes are going to be collected and sold, whether it is to the American and European pet hobby or the Asian food market. From what I understand, Ghana is pretty good about keeping the natural population up, while Togo and Benin aren't very concerned about having the ball python trade as a sustainable resource. On the other hand, the snakes being collected are coming from a pretty small locality in all three countries, so even with stripping these areas dry there are still major untapped areas where BPs are abundant. I don't personally have a problem with people importing snakes for the pet trade. I'd like to see a new morph or two unveiled here every year for as long as possible, and I'd definitely rather see these snakes at a local reptile show than in a can of snake meat in Vietnam. I do find the idea of buying a couple of gravid females in an attempt to hit a morph lottery to be a waste of time and money, but to each his own.

I agree 100%.

Also to littleindianagirl's post. The odd ball snakes that are found are generally given up to major exporters and they contact major breeders in America(RDR, Nerd, BHB, etc). With WC gravid females average breeders have a chance at something new.

Thats the difference.

[herpmajor]

I think there are enough in captivity that they should stop importing.

[jkobylka]

There are a lot of aspects in this debate, but I believe that the large scale exporation of ADULT ball pythons needs to stop. I'm ok with the occasional adult morph coming in and think that ch numbers need to be seriously looked at with the health of the population in mind.

If you want to find a new morph, buying gravid WC females is about the WORST and LEAST EFFECTIVE way to do it.

You'll find 10x the number of potential morphs by going through a ch shipment.

Also, there are more than enough fresh ch blood coming in to diversify the captive population I don't even consider that a factor.

Justin

[Brimstone111888]

There are a lot of aspects in this debate, but I believe that the large scale exporation of ADULT ball pythons needs to stop. I'm ok with the occasional adult morph coming in and think that ch numbers need to be seriously looked at with the health of the population in mind.

If you want to find a new morph, buying gravid WC females is about the WORST and LEAST EFFECTIVE way to do it.

You'll find 10x the number of potential morphs by going through a ch shipment.

Justin

You think CH shipments aren't picked through? I thought they were usually picked clean. I assume some will slip through the cracks, but very few.

I agree buying a Gravid female and having something different come out is like winning the lottery, but if it were I, I would take my chances with luck than hoping someone hasn't previously screwed me over.

[jkobylka]

You think CH shipments aren't picked through? I thought they were usually picked clean. I assume some will slip through the cracks, but very few.

I agree buying a Gravid female and having something different come out is like winning the lottery, but if it were I, I would take my chances with luck than hoping someone hasn't previously screwed me over.

Of course they are picked through. Both in Africa and when they arrive here. Those special animals are available to purchase without making hundreds of WC adults pay the price.

Perhaps the problem is that every hobbiest would love to be the one importing and going through the shipments themselves. We can't all be that person. Including me!

Justin

[Brimstone111888]

I would love to be pulling them out of the termite mounds!

I'm not against importing, but it does need to be regulated and maintained.

[wilomn]

There's a side to this that I don't think has been considered in this thread.

Let's say you've got Ungo out there in Africa. He's poor, got 7 kids, 3 wives and no job. He used to be a farmer but he couldn't make a go of it what with weather and bandits and lazy wives.

However, he CAN make a decent living by putting his kids and wives to work catching baby ball pythons once the hatch and the adults when no babies are available. He can get more for one snake, maybe only a dollar and probably less, than he used to make in an entire week of work. Work which no matter what happens with the bally python import market he can no longer do.

Ungo likes to eat. He likes his wives fat and his children quiet. He likes it enough that he brings in snakes, not that he catches them himself he's a business man now and doesn't like getting dirty anymore, that his fat wives and quiet children have gone out and gotten even when there is no order for those snakes. In fact, he has set up little chicken wire cages to keep the snakes in until he has enough to make a trip to the city worth while.

If Ungo no longer sells snakes his wives get skinny and mean and his children cry and become annoyances instead of the money making joys he has so come to appreciate. Not only that, but if there are no snakes to sell, Ungo must either starve himself or find other work, work that would get his hands dirty and take all his time. Ungo does not want to do this.

Ungo has hundreds if not thousands of counterparts.

Until there are no more wild ball pythons there will be wild caught available.

Ungo will see to it.

So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

joe, I was not being rude, no matter what you think. I was simply trying to write in a fashion that would allow you to assimilate the data I wished to impart with complete comprehension on your part. Since my first attempt was a failure, in your instance, I took another route.

Perhaps instead of finding fault with my presentation you should try looking at things from ANY other point of view than the one YOU have ASSumed is the only one with any validity.

[Tosha_Mc]

I think there is good debate on either side - but numbers wise it doesn't appear that the exportation of balls is making much of a dent in the general wild populations - there are designated areas where trapping is permitted there are areas where it is not - according to the cities investigations there doesn't seem to be a big difference in the number of balls per acre between the two. Also put into place are the rules and regulations about releasing the percentage back into the wild to accommodate for what is being taken. Blah Blah Blah. Whether they keep true and accurate records is another argument.

My major problem is that these animals get over here - they are completely misrepresented and sold as ghosts, desert ghosts, axanthics, etc. when their coloration is most likely due to being gravid - and then the "oddballs" that are hatched are almost as likely a result of stress on either mom or the egg and are not in fact genetic. How few of these oddballs actually prove out?

Anyway - it's economics for a poor country - and if we didn't buy them as pets they would end up as food. If the wild populations die out - there are plenty of unwanted normals in the US we can send back for re population.