Feeding live mice and rats is dangerous... Wives tale?

[bearhart]

I also follow Adam's methods, and with over 3000 live feedings, not one bite, not one scratch, not one mauling.

You think Adam's claims are dubious - do you really believe he'd risk his collection to live feeders if he really had problems?

I believe the OP asked for pictures of permanent scars left by injuries. You said you've had two, can you post those pictures of the permanent scarring from your animals being injured?

Four people voted that feeding left permanent scarring in their animals, but no one has posted a picture?

I did not say I found his claims dubious. I said I was skeptical that there has never even been a scratch or bite. I wasn't even necessarily suggesting he's lying - mild injuries would be easy to miss especially with that many snakes. Most importantly, I said I believed that none of his snakes had been seriously injured.

I do not have time this evening to take pictures but I will say that there are permanent scale scars on two of my snakes and they look very much like the BP picture above. Actually, its three snakes if you count my olive that got a couple before she was in my (or Blake's) care. In fact, my BP's scar is on his eye but luckily it is extremely small. (If this thread is still going tomorrow, perhaps I'll take the time to take some photos).

The intent of my post was not to pick sides in the argument. In fact, I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to this subject. My main point was that its all about the details when it comes to live feeding. You see this pattern often in these threads:

1) Somebody makes a blanket claim about the safety of live feeding.
2) Somebody says "my snake has been injured" or something to that effect.
3) Somebody else starts asking questions in attempt to find fault in the keeper with questions like "But how big was the rat?" etc.

So all I'm saying is that I think that the original claim should be "Live feeding is very safe as long as ...". I think that, without the qualifiers, statements about the safety of live feeding can be dangerous.

Adam, I'll be sure to check out your more detailed thread on the issue.

Cheers!

[frankykeno]

They eat live in the wild right?

Well yes, as far as I know they are not scavengers of dead prey normally. However, equating wild feeding behaviours to captive, controlled live feedings isn't, in my opinion, of any real use. Wild is wild, captive is quite another thing.

I've long given up trying to figure out how many live feeds I've supervised with our collection. I will not state it's impossible that a snake might one day be injured, I will only say what is my personal experience and what we do to minimize risk.

In my own experience, with the current collection of 26 snakes, of various ages, from three different species we've yet to see a live feeding injury. We follow very specific guidelines, we have very rigid feeding protocols that we don't deviate from, we know each and every snake and what it is capable of, we offer only well fed, well hydrated live prey that we ourselves produce, we stay to specific sizes for specific snakes. It's a lot of attention to detail, however, for us and our snakes it's worth it.

Not one bite from a prey item and the only scars our snakes carry are from injuries sustained prior to us owning them. None of the scars by the way are from prey bites. They are the permanent marks of poor care and neglect from humans.

[TanyaL]

I feed F/T because

1 - She eats f/t, no problem
2 - I feel bad for the prey
3 - I've got no way to keep the prey should she not feed, F/T stores easier
4 - I'm not experienced enough to feed live. I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to do should an bit/attack happen. What can I say, I'm a chicken!

BUT - I have heard that the F/T rodents do lose nutrients (or whatever) that the snake needs. I may consider later on to feed live if this is indeed the case and I am confident enough to feed live. I would in no way put my snake in any kind of harm because of my lack of experience. Just not worth it, IMO. While some bites might come from a stroke of bad luck, I do believe that most of it is due to experience or a lack of.

If somebody can point me in the direction on the benefits of feeding live over F/T I would appreciate it. I don't know who to believe anymore. I mean, one source will say one thing and another will say the complete opposite. UGH!

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I feed F/T because

1 - She eats f/t, no problem
2 - I feel bad for the prey
3 - I've got no way to keep the prey should she not feed, F/T stores easier
4 - I'm not experienced enough to feed live. I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to do should an bit/attack happen. What can I say, I'm a chicken!

BUT - I have heard that the F/T rodents do lose nutrients (or whatever) that the snake needs. I may consider later on to feed live if this is indeed the case and I am confident enough to feed live. I would in no way put my snake in any kind of harm because of my lack of experience. Just not worth it, IMO. While some bites might come from a stroke of bad luck, I do believe that most of it is due to experience or a lack of.

If somebody can point me in the direction on the benefits of feeding live over F/T I would appreciate it. I don't know who to believe anymore. I mean, one source will say one thing and another will say the complete opposite. UGH!

Benefits:

Some snakes won't eat f / t.

It is easier for some keepers to feed live.

Some keepers like to watch the snake doing what a snake does best...

If your snake already eats regularly on f / t... there is no reason to switch them to live unless you have a good reason to.

[frankykeno]

I don't know who to believe anymore. I mean, one source will say one thing and another will say the complete opposite. UGH!

Tanya, there isn't anyone to "believe" dear. It's not about live is better than frozen/thawed, or live is too dangerous or whatever. It is exactly about what you posted. You've actually in your inexperience said what should be said about feeding, as far as I'm concerned.

Feed what works - what you feel most comfortable feeding at your experience level - what your instincts tell you is right for you and for your snake - what your snake is feeding on and doing well on.

Everything else is opinions and experience and of value of course. Learn from them, consider them, and add them to your growing knowledge. Never stop being open to learning but in the end, do what you personally feel you can handle. As long as you are a happy, confident owner and your snake is healthy and doing well....it's all good.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Well, so far 62 people have voted. 8 of these votes claimed scaring as a result of correctly feeding live. HOWEVER most of the people that voted this way broke the golden rule and talked about what has happened to other people... things they heard of.

Only 2 people have been able to post picture "proof" of the scaring....

1 of these IN MY OPINION clearly shows where a rodent was allowed time alone with the rodent.. as it had obviously been chewed on over an extended area. The owner claimed that as he watched, the rat immediately attacked the snake and bit multiple times.... before the owner could react. yeah...

The other was a claim that a 1200 gram ball was scared by a MOUSE of average size...

Many BIG names on this site... Ones that have collections us meer mortals can only dream of explain how after thousands and thousands of live feedings, they have never had a problem... Of course people accuse them of lying... or even said that they have to many snakes to even notice! LOL! I think it is safe to say when adam sells one of his 1500 dollar snakes, he is aware of any scars!!!!

Interesting... very interesting...

[bearhart]

Suggesting that people are lying about their snake's injuries is silly.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I said I was skeptical that there has never even been a scratch or bite.

I'm not sure what I've ever done to give you the impression that the information I share on this message board is less than accurate, but I say what I mean and mean what I say.

I wasn't even necessarily suggesting he's lying

Well ... thank you ... I think.

- mild injuries would be easy to miss especially with that many snakes.

Maybe they would be for you, but not for me ... my animals are my life ... each one is closely inspected each week for all sorts of potential health problems and a rodent related injury would be noticed immediately.

I'm not trying to "convince" anyone that live feeding is SAFE ... only that it can be done safely, and that's only because that is a feat that I've managed to accomplished on a large scale for a long time.

I've extended the invite before for anyone that wishes to come to my shop on feeding day and feed 700+ ball pythons live to see how many get bit ... it still stands.

-adam

[jeffjr464]

i feed live exlusively, had a mouse attempt to bite ONCE, stopped that with tweezers, the chances of them getting a serious bite in, with the 25-30 seconds of life they have left are very slim, 99% of the time the prey is a little more focused on trying to breathe, i supervise the whole feed until the prey is fully swallowed, it seems some people drop the prey in and wait 10 mins then act, from the pages i've read in this thread just the impression i got, a snake is a very effective predator, prey items around here don't stand a chance

[firehop]

Well once again you cant read!!! But hey its ok to post 57 times and call other people liars that you have never met or even conversed with. Everyone has an opinion. I am curious how many animals you really have and for how long. No need in replying though IN MY OPINION I am too old to give a crap about your opinion any longer than I have. You go on and continue to make judgements about people from behind your computer. Have a great day.

Well, so far 62 people have voted. 8 of these votes claimed scaring as a result of correctly feeding live. HOWEVER most of the people that voted this way broke the golden rule and talked about what has happened to other people... things they heard of.

Only 2 people have been able to post picture "proof" of the scaring....

1 of these IN MY OPINION clearly shows where a rodent was allowed time alone with the rodent.. as it had obviously been chewed on over an extended area. The owner claimed that as he watched, the rat immediately attacked the snake and bit multiple times.... before the owner could react. yeah...

The other was a claim that a 1200 gram ball was scared by a MOUSE of average size...

Many BIG names on this site... Ones that have collections us meer mortals can only dream of explain how after thousands and thousands of live feedings, they have never had a problem... Of course people accuse them of lying... or even said that they have to many snakes to even notice! LOL! I think it is safe to say when adam sells one of his 1500 dollar snakes, he is aware of any scars!!!!

Interesting... very interesting...