F/T Kills Thiamine Important B Vitamin

[Michael314]

I have found a paper written in the journal of nutrition Ref. 1, which investigates the break down of thiamine in wet feed stock, not a mouse, but it would be a similar trend. They found that freezing slows the breakdown of the thiamine by oxidation or reduction by sulphur dioxide or casein. The freezing also inactivates the thiaminase which cleaves the thiamine. Mice do not contain casein, but do produce sulphur dioxide. Therefore freezing is the best way of preserving the thiamine for long term storage.

A fresh mouse will contain higher thiamine as it is replaced naturally whilst it is alive as it eats seeds and grain and but will quickly breakdown after death if it is warm almost 50% in 1 hour. A snake can handle lower concentrations of thiamine due to its efficient use of water, thiamine is very soluble and will only accumilate in the muscles for a short period in mammals as they deficate and urinate often. Whilst in the muscle it is converted into less soluble thiamin pyrophosphate Ref . 2, which is a co-enzyme that helps other enzymes in the digestion of carbohydrate (something a mouse has fairly little of anyway). In snakes it will remain in the muscle tissue longer and more will be converted.

[littleindiangirl]

It does sound plausible. I mean, I prefer fresh meat over meat that has been frozen for months. I like my food fresh, but I have a hard time acknowledging that feeding f/t has any detrimental effects on snakes. Something to think about.

[giaach]

Okay, since everyone has been asking for a link to this information, I think I can explain where this all came from. When I first started doing research on Ball Pythons I found this site called reptilestv.com now it was pretty basic when it came to information but the herpetologist/host mentioned in the feeding video that frozen thawed is not as good because it kills thiamine, yada yada yada. So being curious I wiki'd thiamine and got all this information about the vitamin and its relation to bps. While I don't have a physical link to a article, all of this stems from a past article I read about feeding goldfish to piranhas, which I had at the time. The reason I decided to post this thread was manly because I know so many of you feed f/t, and I was curious to hear your opinions on this topic. While most people I assume would just blow off this bit of BP urban legend, I figured I see what everyone had to say.

[drugaria]

So, if freezing destroys Thiamine and all living creatures need it, then why aren't YOU eating live animals????

because we feed on a variety of foods that contain this vitamin and others and we take vitamin supplements , roddents are the only supplier of nutrients and vitamins for the snakes . Got it !

[Brimstone111888]

because we feed on a variety of foods that contain this vitamin and others and we take vitamin supplements , roddents are the only supplier of nutrients and vitamins for the snakes . Got it !

Couldn't be more right. Almost everything we eat is enriched some how.

[MarkS]

because we feed on a variety of foods that contain this vitamin and others and we take vitamin supplements , roddents are the only supplier of nutrients and vitamins for the snakes . Got it

I don't know... I think we really ought to start swallowing whole live animals just to be on the safe side. Maybe those wacky collegian antics of yesteryear of seeing how many goldfish you could swallow weren't such a bad idea after all? Go ahead, I double dare ya to swallow a live pinkie.

[elevatethis]

There are other water-soluble vitamins that break down when frozen, given time. However, I think that anyone feeding f/t that goes through their frozen stock at least once every 6 months has little to worry about nutrition-wise.

That being said, there have not been any studies done on the nutritional needs of ball pythons, so we don't really know if they are being hurt or helped from eating frozen rodents.

What we do know, however, is that many keepers have raised many healthy ball pythons on f/t rodents. Regardless of the freezing effect on nutrients, I think that speaks for itself.

I still prefer to feed live food, though...but not for nutritional reasons...

[Morphie]

there are untold differences between live/frozen foods. This may be the first discovery of a hundred that suggest we are doing better by our snakes by feeding them the way nature intended.

It is for this reason that i raise my own feeders and feed them live meals when production is good.

[drugaria]

I don't know... I think we really ought to start swallowing whole live animals just to be on the safe side. Maybe those wacky collegian antics of yesteryear of seeing how many goldfish you could swallow weren't such a bad idea after all? Go ahead, I double dare ya to swallow a live pinkie.

It is worth trying it

[_Venom_]

I saw this on a video on youtube.