Help! New BP Strikes Frequently

[kc261]

The documentation that BPs are apparently more sensitive to heat (in the sense of being more aware of it) on their dorsal saide as opposed to their ventral side has already been posted on this thread by Rabernet. It is a quote from the book by the Barkers, in other words, VPI, in other words, some people who have a lot of experience with BPs, and a lot of contact with a lot of other people with a lot of experience with BPs. Admittedly, it is anecdotal evidence, not the same as a scientific study, but when you have a large body of anecdotal evidence, and it all points in one direction, that makes a very strong case.

I agree with The Mad Nucleus when he (?) said that Little Indian Girl's argument about the temperatures in the wild didn't quite make sense. How the ground gets warm does not matter; what BPs experience in the wild is that at least some of the time, the ground is warm. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on that specific region and say exactly how hot it is or how much it might vary, but generally the ground is an excellent thermoregulating device in the sense that it absorbs heat and holds it, so it changes temperature slowly. Animals that live in burrows will have much more stable temperatures than are at the surface. Also, when temperatures drop at night, the air temp will drop much more quickly than the ground temp, so even the animals on the surface will have warmth below them, and for snakes that means warmth on their bellies.

Mad Nucleus's reply had at least one hole in it as well. True, the hood of a black car can get much warmer than the air around it on a hot sunny day. But how many black car hoods will BPs come across in the wild? The ground in a BPs natural habitat probably doesn't get hot enough to burn them very often. If the ground is that hot, it would most likely be when the sun is shining directly on it, so any BP on that surface will be able to detect that they are getting too hot from the sunlight hitting their back. So it does make perfect sense based on the conditions that BPs are likely to encounter in the wild would have allowed them to evolve to become aware of burning hot temperatures and the need to move to a cooler place based only on what they sense on their dorsal side. They are mostly nocturnal, so when they do come out, the ground will not be burning hot from direct sunlight anyway.

[littleindiangirl]

The reason we got so off topic was because Mad Nucleus says that if a BP is hot enough to get burnt it will move, so he does not need to control the UTH. We brought forward evidence from the Barkers and general experience stating that No, in most cases they will not move, but will voluntarily stay on the heat source until they are burnt.
He is making excuses for why he should not control the heat source, even if it is only a preventative measure. That is seriously dangerous to the snake in my opinion and I don't condone that reckless behavior at all.

[TheMadNucleus]

Wow - a flurry of responses with a large variety of views and thoughts on the subject. It would be tough for me to respond to all of these but let me try to at least set some of the record straight (I have life outside this forum):

1.) One poster makes fun of the black car hood analogy based on the fact that none are in the deserts of Africa - this a foolish statement on many counts - but suffice to say the analogy was just that - offered to demonstrate that the ground can and does get very hot based on the location, color, exposure, etc.

2.) One poster said: follow your own advice and give it back. I've considered that but the damage has already been done - I supported the trade by purchasing it and therefore regardless of whether I give it back or not he will remain in captivity and I am sure that I will provide him with a good, properly regulated home and it is likely he may not get that elsewhere. Additionally, my comments were meant to make those who are so self-righteous about keeping these animals aware of the fact that this is not a warm and fuzzy hobby - we are keeping these animals for our own enjoyment, against their will and clearly putting them in stress. So be honest with yourselves - you are capitalizing on this animal's helplessness for your (our) own enjoyment - myself included.

3.) One poster says that no one on this forum said that they enjoy being handled - that is an out right lie - in this very thread - if you review it from start to finish at the very least imply it and much of the literature implies this.

4.) People then are differentiating biting out of defense or aggression, and anyone who answers this is truly clairvoyant - because you just don't know - some may bite out of defense and some may bite out of aggression. None the less - it does not matter as a biting animal is obviously an animal that is under stress.

5.) One person posts how anyone could come into this hobby thinking that the snake could be cuddled - this is obviously an extreme example meant to support a jab in disguise - I doubt anyone thinks this - clearly not me. However - they need to go back and do a lot of research because much of it indicates "the small size and docile nature of these animals make them excellent pets." This is not true for many reasons - however - agreed that the care sheets on this site do not state anything like that. Also - they should go back and re-read the posts in this thread - plenty of them imply that the animals 'chill' while watching TV - make lovely lap snakes, etc. etc.

6.) Someone else makes a statement that I claimed years of experience - that is true - but with different snakes - all three of which never snapped, not even once in many years of ownership. Also - I owned those snakes more than 20 years ago.

7.) Someone posted a quote here from some biologists regarding belly burns and quite frankly it does not tie in with the body of knowledge from other sources perhaps even more reputable (including Sutherland's book, and Vosjoli's book) - but it is interesting because if this is your yardstick then why don't the care sheets on this site completely ban UTH - one contradicts the other - which is the whole point of many of my posts.


IMHO, using UTH properly is far from reckless. I have measured these devices, inquired about their construction and they need not be regulated - it is plain nonsense to assume that they need to be regulated - you might as well be more concerned about the bp's exposure to electromagnetic radiation. There is about as much possibility of these getting hot enough to burn flesh as there is that the BP get struck by lighting. They are very low watt devises constructed of thin nichrome which doubles as a fusing devise, so even the wattage is displaced over a large area.

[pdr-now]

Yeah I just browsed over this quickly, but thought it to be interesting how littleindiangirl can't understand how BPs can be burned from a heat pad. After using the regular heat pad from the pet store for a while and from the beginning I knew it was getting to hot just by me touching it so i put half inch spacers under the tank and it seemed to help. At this point I really didn't know any better as to what the proper temps were supposed to be. So after discovering this forum and all the helpful info I decided to take the advice and use a IR thermometer to actually see what the temps were from the head pad. They were 110*, and this was with the spacers to lift the tank up a half inch. After reading more about dimmer switches I went to wal-mart and bought a $3 dollar rheostat switch and spliced it into the wiring and now i am able to set my tub directly on the heat pad and keep it right between 92-95. Oh and of course I also picked up a $12 accu-rite thermometer too. Spending this $15 dollars on these two items to have a piece of mind is worth it for me and most importantly they both proved to give the results I was after.

Anyways, I see lots of helpful people on these forums always trying to help new stubborn BP owner that think they know everything about these animals and even though most will not stop for a second to admit that they might be wrong, There is still a lot of people that are reading and learning from what these stubborn people insist to disagree on.

Oh and if "touching a car parked it the sun" was a bad example how about when you go to the beach on a hot day and you walk on the hot sand with no shoes and it feels like it is burning your feet? Let me guess that was a bad example for you to understand too....lol.. but seriously why not listen and spend $3 to at least get you temps right?

[pdr-now]

Yeah I just browsed over this quickly, but thought it to be interesting how littleindiangirl can't understand how BPs can be burned from a heat pad.

Ok, maybe it was TheMadNucleus that thinks they can't be burned. Good Luck....

[littleindiangirl]

LOL, im not the one that doesnt think snakes get burned. Nice try though. I guess I should have not used the word "ambient" temperature. The snake is getting a more accurate reading from the over head heat source than from UTH. The sun is directly shining down on a snake, allowing the snake to better judge when it is to hot, as opposed to belly heat. The longer the snake stays in one area, the ground below it cools down. So the snake really doesnt have to rely on belly heat, because it is not a constant emitter of heat. I have worded it incorrectly, my bad. Still the ground does not transfer heat nearly as well as car hood. Really, loose dirt and grass dont transfer heat nearly as well as rock. It really depends on where the animal is sitting when its basking. Anyways, I've wasted enough time trying to explain why you need a thermostat or rheostat. I didn't think no one would back me up on this, but to each his own.

[rabernet]

7.) Someone posted a quote here from some biologists regarding belly burns and quite frankly it does not tie in with the body of knowledge from other sources perhaps even more reputable (including Sutherland's book, and Vosjoli's book) - but it is interesting because if this is your yardstick then why don't the care sheets on this site completely ban UTH - one contradicts the other - which is the whole point of many of my posts.

That would be me.

I think that as a source, many would argue with you on that point. Not saying they aren't reputable, but I doubt you'd find many who would say that they are MORE reputable. Instead of being critical of a book you've never read, why don't you purchase it, read it, and THEN post your opinion on it? Call any of the most reputable and respected breeders and keepers of ball pythons and ask them what books they recommend with the most CURRENT and up to date information and you will be recommended both the Barkers book and Kevin McCurley's book The Complete Ball Python.

[TheMadNucleus]

Hi Rabernet - thanks for the reply and the suggestion - I wil try to get this book and read it. Your comments make perfect sense - I have little right to comment on a book I have not read.

[MelissaFlipski]

All I can say to this thread is... woah. But beyond that, I will come up with my own 2 cents.

1) On the striking issue. I agree with the poster that said to slowly move your hand behind the snake and stroke his back to say, "Hey, it's handling time." Of course, that's after things have settled down and he's gotten in to a routine, e.g. what time lights go on and off for "daylight", his temps (90/80 gradient), his humidity (50 - 60%), and feeding. I liked the advice on smaller tank and more hides - you could also post a picture for more advice on tank set up. You could save the larger tank for when he gets a lot bigger.

Maybe only try taking him out after a week or two, or even three, when he happens to be "out and about" already. What we do when we take out Mr. Snake is talk to him first to let him know we are there. Then we open the tank, another sign we are coming in. We put our hand in far from where he sits, slowly moving our hand toward his backside (wherever his head ISN'T) and stroke him gently, while we ask, "Can we take you out?" Then we lift him slowly with two hands out of the tank. We don't control his head at all, but you might do that given the situation. And keep handling sessions down to a minimun at first, only a couple minutes, possibly twice a day and at the same time to establish the handling routine.

2) On the UTH. We just got our BP (first snake, by the way) about a month ago. The UTH came with the "critter tank" 20 gal set up kit. We found very early on that it got the glass on the bottom of the tank too hot. My husband, handy guy that he is, cut the line and added a dimmer switch in the middle to turn it down some. Mr. Snake gets most of his heat from above from a CHE anyway. But, of course, that now needs a dimmer too since temps are on a 93-95/82-87 gradient. We ended up covering the UTH with a ceramic casserole dish that is under the CHE anyway to keep our humidity from dropping so much. So he'll get warmer water, but no burns. We still keep the dimmer down a little to be sure the ceramic doesn't get hot though.

Maybe your UTH is a different brand and doesn't get as hot. Who knows? Are both UTH's only "warm"? One thing to note, what is warm or hot to your hand is different than what is warm or hot to, say, your elbow. When you become a parent, you learn to test the bath water with your forearm or elbow b/c hands are used to very hot water (e.g. from doing dishes) and can give the wrong perceived temperature - and kids can end up with minor burns or hurting. Try touching the UTH with your forearm if you can reach it, or your toe or something. You might feel differently.

3) On the thread in general. I know it's hard being new to the site and getting all kinds of "harsh" feedback. But I think that people are genuinely trying to help and protect your snake. I have had my own moments (kissing snake thread was mine!) here, as well. But don't take it personally. Hang in there and take care of that little guy!

[dr del]

7.) Someone posted a quote here from some biologists regarding belly burns and quite frankly it does not tie in with the body of knowledge from other sources perhaps even more reputable (including Sutherland's book, and Vosjoli's book) - but it is interesting because if this is your yardstick then why don't the care sheets on this site completely ban UTH - one contradicts the other - which is the whole point of many of my posts.


IMHO, using UTH properly is far from reckless. I have measured these devices, inquired about their construction and they need not be regulated - it is plain nonsense to assume that they need to be regulated - you might as well be more concerned about the bp's exposure to electromagnetic radiation. There is about as much possibility of these getting hot enough to burn flesh as there is that the BP get struck by lighting. They are very low watt devises constructed of thin nichrome which doubles as a fusing devise, so even the wattage is displaced over a large area.

Hi,

Just my on a couple of points.

"some biologists"?? you did follow the link and actually find out who they are and what they've done didn't you? Here is the link again in case you missed it.

I agree that using UTH's properly is far from reckless but the rest of your point is based on a completely false premise - that there is only one type/manufacturer and that they all perform identically.

This is so wrong it's frightening.

Over here the type available in stores are extremely weak and generally can only raise their surface temps about 10 C above ambient. Unless they malfunction they probably could be used without any control as long as ambients were stable. They do malfunction every now and again the same as everything else of course - at which point a thermostat might make the difference between a cold snake and a disaster.

This sounds like the type you have from your descriptions.

The flexwatt I ordered from America however can reach a surface temp of 120+f in the same room that those ones only reach 85f.

There may indeed be plain nonsense in this thread but, to be honest, we aren't the ones talking it (on that front at least ).

The reason the caresheets don't ban UTH's is because our defenition of using them properly includes using some form of regulation as an absolute must precisely because we know the range of performance and construction the term "UTH" covers. There is no contradiction just poor comprehension.

I agree with you there is no grounds at all to suppose our snakes enjoy handling.

The reason people are differentiating between aggression and defense however is because one can generally be improved fairly easily and if you make the snake feel more secure and it stops being as nippy then I don't think clairvoyance needs to be used. You don't know which it is before you begin trying to fix it but you can try and form conclusions with hindsight.

As to your assertion that the species as a whole is not suitable as a pet because yours still nips after a short time of ownership that's just plain daft.

Most ball pythons are indeed perfectly handleable without biting - but it's an animal not a toaster, variability in temperament should be expected. When the sources you mention say that they are good pets they mean the average disposition of all the ones they have ecountered was fine.

I have 5 sitting within 15 foot of me that have shown me no agression and any bites have occured purely because of mistakes I made when feeding etc. That doesn't mean I disbelieve anyone who has one who bites at every given opportunity - we had a speckled kingsnake once that was the most determined biter/crapper/musker I have ever seen even after being in the same home for 3 years. I don't condem every kingsnake for that any more than I condem all of humanity because of jeffrey dhamer.

This rambled on a lot more than I meant it to but hopefully some sense managed to creep in among the random blithering.


**edit**

Wow 6 posts since I started trying to compose this drivel. I need typing lessons.

**end edit**


dr del