Spins and shakes in Spiders - Genetic Connection?

[Chuck]

So here is my question since this is a genetic defect with the spider gene, but not all spider display it wouldn't all spiders carry it. If all spiders carry it then it could be possible for 2 spider that drop a clutch to have offspring that do exhibit the neurological issue. I guess I am curious to know what is known about the spiders and the neurological problems.


Chuck

[JLC]

Just a quick note: I split this post off of an old thread and gave it it's own thread to lead. This way the actual question being asked can get the attention it deserves without being distracted from by the baggage in a thread over a year old.

[muddoc]

Chuck,
First of all, I don't know why you call it a DEFECT. I have produced many Spiders that "spin". Some more so than others. However, all of my Spider hatchlings have eaten and grown as well as any other snake in my collection. I sold one last year that was a drastic spinner, and he ate fine and bred at 8 months of age and produced offspring. So, with that said, I would not say that it is a defect, but rather a personality enhancer.

As for some spinning and some not, as many people will tell you, all Spiders spin or shake to some degree. Some just have to be observed very closely to notice it. I would say that it has just become accepted as a trait that comes along with a Spider, and if it bothers you(not Chuck specifically) then don't add them to your collection. If you choose not to get them for the reason of spinning, then, in my opinion, you are missing out on a great looking animal with a great personality. I say great personality because all of my hold back Spiders are very inquisitive, and each one is a little different and keeps me interested in observing them.

[jknudson]

The real “spin” on spiders.

Tuesday, February 13th, 2007 When I purchased my first spider many years ago, I had heard and was told about “spinning” in spider ball pythons. The way it was described, I understood “spinning” to be a condition where the animal continually loops their head and neck in a “corkscrew” motion and barely has the ability to sit still. I looked over my spider and there was no “cork screwing” so in my mind, he wasn’t a “spinner”.

Over the years that followed as I raised my spider, I heard a lot of big breeders making statements like “all spiders spin” or “all spiders are tweaked” and I really got pissed off. How could they be saying stuff like that? All they were doing was hurting any chance I ever had at selling spiders. Surely I would produce spiders that didn’t spin and if they were telling people that every single one was “tweaked”, I’d be cooked!

Then, I started producing my own spiders. Within my first couple of clutches I noticed a couple that “weren’t right”, but no big deal, I just wouldn’t sell those. Then I started looking harder. I noticed different degrees of odd behavior in all of the spiders that I produced. Some shook their head from side to side, some spun like tops, and others did the corkscrew thing as they were cruising their cage at night, still others were less noticeable but it was there. The less noticeable ones didn’t wobble or corkscrew, but they held their head at an angle when you looked at them. Kind of like the way a dog looks when it hears something it doesn’t understand. So then I started looking at spiders. Spiders in my friends collections, spiders at shows, spiders in pictures posted on the internet. All of them do it do some degree, all of them.

I’ve read the internet rumors that it has something to do with the amount of white, or the head pattern, or the connecting or non-connecting neck stripe on the animals neck … bologna! It doesn’t matter, they all do it. I’ve also heard that spider siblings do it. After producing tons of spider clutches, I don’t find that to be an accurate statement. I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python. Over the years (and before I ever heard of spinning in spiders) I have produced a heterozygous albino and a normal looking pastel sibling that spin the exact same way that spiders do. I feel that it is a condition that can effect all ball pythons but for whatever reason is common in spiders. I’ve also heard that the reason spiders spin is because they were so inbred early on in the project … ridiculous. The recessive mutations out there have been inbred/line bred by an order of magnitude more than spiders. The notion that a co-dominant/dominant mutation can be inbred more than a recessive is an ill informed one.

I finally understood what the big breeders were saying. It’s not always as in your face as people expect it to be, but it’s there in each and every spider. You just have to know what to look for. Now I know a lot of people are going to read this and say “no, not my spider”. I’m telling you, your spider does it too. You just have to know what to look for.I’m not sure what the answer is, but I know one thing for sure … spin or not, I LOVE SPIDERS! I love their natural variation, I love the combos that they make, I love everything about them. I will always breed and produce spiders. I will do my best to keep my customers informed about them as much as I am and leave the decision to them. If I have to end up keeping every spider and spider I produce … well, that’s fine with me!

Bravo! All you need to know...

[West Coast Jungle]

Adam is right on.(As usual)

I myself have 2 spiders(male and female) and one does it more than the other(barely noticeable). They are great snakes and would not trade them for the world. My one bobble heads mostly at feeding time, when excited.

Spiders are one of the best morphs you can have in your collection, they eat great, act great, grow nicely and breed well. I would not hesitate to recommend spiders to anyone collecting BP's. Their combos are the amazing!

It's not like seizures or ANYTHING like that. People just can't help but want to put the 2 VERY DIFFERENT behaviors in the same category and say defect!

[J.Vandegrift]

I agree with adam on this one. They all spin to some degree. I personally don't see how it can be considered any other than a defect. I know everyone always says they eat and breed fine, but they have not been around long enough to know if there will be any long term problems. No one knows if these snakes will end up living 40 years or die earlier than normal yet. I personally have chose not to work with them because of this defect. I think they are great looking snakes and the Lesserbees (check out the one John Piro is selling on KS it's insane) are one of my favorites but I have resisted buying any because of this. Maybe if someone figures out how to at least minimize this problem I would change my mind but I have seen some that were so bad that they pretty much layed coiled upside down 24/7.

[West Coast Jungle]

I agree with adam on this one. They all spin to some degree. I personally don't see how it can be considered any other than a defect. I know everyone always says they eat and breed fine, but they have not been around long enough to know if there will be any long term problems. No one knows if these snakes will end up living 40 years or die earlier than normal yet. I personally have chose not to work with them because of this defect. I think they are great looking snakes and the Lesserbees (check out the one John Piro is selling on KS it's insane) are one of my favorites but I have resisted buying any because of this. Maybe if someone figures out how to at least minimize this problem I would change my mind but I have seen some that were so bad that they pretty much layed coiled upside down 24/7.

No disrespect John but:

Laying upside down 24/7 is definately a red flag!

Not buying a snake because you are not sure if it will live 40 years?

Thats kinda asking alot in my opinion.

There are many spiders that don't show obvious signs of spinning, isn't that enough?

I think when you are thinking of buying a spider you should investigate and ask about spinning or bobbling and make decisions based on the animal. Just as I would any other morph/snake and when I ask about it's specific traits wether it is how white, blushing, flames, eating habits, pattern, browning, etc..

To me it's just one more trait to investigate.

[J.Vandegrift]

No disrespect John but:

Laying upside down 24/7 is definately a red flag!

Not buying a snake because you are not sure if it will live 40 years?

Thats kinda asking alot in my opinion.

I am not exaggerating about laying coiled upside down 24/7. It is only the front half of it's body but it is pretty disturbing to see.By 40 years I mean no one knows if spiders will live to reach the average lifespan of ball pythons. Do you think it is "asking a lot" to expect a snake to live to reach it's normal lifespan? Everyone says they eat and breed fine but I am more interested in whether or not this defect will affect them long term. I can easily find a spider that does not wobble too bad but that is not the point. I have no guarantee that it's offspring would not be bad spinners. That is why I choose not to breed or keep them. I don't look down on anyone at all that does choose to breed them, but I personally don't want to breed a defective trait into my animals. I am also not breeding to get super cinny's for the same reason even though I think the Super cinny's defects are less severe than the spiders problems.

[MPenn]

The one female spider I have does not do any of the spinning or corkscrewing that has been stated.

She does however tilt her head sideways when she goes to grab the rat. And she does a little wobble kind of like an older person does.

[nevohraalnavnoj]

I have a spider who does the shakes too. He is also a bit clumsy and wakes me up in the middle of the night sometimes with a "thump" coming from his cage. I just treat him as "special". He eats well and will hopefully breed well someday.

My question is about the aforementioned statement that recessives have been inbred more than codoms. Couldn't there have been a lot of inbreeding going on with the codoms initially to determine if there was a super? Ie to determine of the trait was codom or dom? Just a thought...

JonV