Some gathered information...

[CeraDigital]

I've been doing a little "study" on Burms, since I have heard and read so many debates on their feeding. I agree with feeding smaller more frequent prey items to them. I've been doing this since I've kept them, and for all my Rock Pythons they seem to do much better being fed this way. Other keepers have done the same, and seen better results as well as healthier animals. I had bought 2 females from the same clutch, and two males. I had taken 1.1 of each and put them on different diets from the other pair. Pair number one recieves smaller more frequent meals, where as pair number two recieves larger less frequent meals. Pair number one is fed 10% bodyweight or so each week (one small meal around 5% body weight every few days), where as pair number two is fed 15% bodyweight every 10 days. Both pairs are kept in the same way. Humidity is kept at 55% to 58%. Temperatures are kept at 92F for their warm side, and 84F for their cool side. They both have access to a water bowl at all times, all the same size. They are all kept on cypress mulch, mixed with sphagnum moss.

This is what I have gathered through observations as of now...

Pair #1
- They have a more toned and defined body, and overall healthier appearance to them.
- They act/react more naturally, as well as show much higher activity levels, and show much more curiosity towards their environment.
- Their skin and scales appear healthier so far.
- They have had no shedding problems as of yet.
- They defecate, and urinate on a more regular basis.

Pair #2
- Less active than pair 1.
- Bodies are somewhat less muscular, and have an elastic feel to them, as well as it isn't as firm. Their bodies appear to be a little "fattier".
- They have shown wrinkles, or dented scales (probably due to the fact they lie longer digesting their meal and aren't as active)
- They defecate and urinate on a more infrequent basis.
- Female has shed in 3-4 pieces. (this could be due to other factors non-relative to feeding schedule, or size of their prey).

Here are their weights as followed.
Pair #1
-Weigh in one:
Male: 211 grams
Female: 225 grams
-Weigh in two:
Male: 248 grams
Female: 509 grams
-Weigh in three:
Male: 321 grams
Female: 712 grams

Pair #2
-Weigh in one:
Male: 208 grams
Female: 234 grams
-Weigh in two:
Male: 239 grams
Female: 408 grams
-Weigh in three:
Male: 312 grams
Female: 667 grams

These Burmese pythons were a few months old when I acquired them, and I have only had them for a couple months. I'm doing this little "study/test" to gather information to see which has a healthier outcome for the animal. I just wanted to share what I've gathered so far, and if you'd like I can share the rest of the information as I continue to gather them. I'm going to perform this up until they are around 3 years of age. I am keeping a growth chart as well as feeding records and shed records.

Anyone with more knowledge on breeding behaviour, and nutrition in the giant python species, could you answer a question? If they do gain more nutrition from one method over the other, would the female benefitting the most from their feeding schedule bear more eggs, or lay a healthier clutch? I'm just curious if it would, as it could possibly show which is healthier for the animal as well.

[CeraDigital]

Does anyone have any information as to whether diet and nutrition will effect the outcome of a healthy clutch in any noticeable way, such as higher clutch count, higher hatching rate or anything of the like? I'm interested in hearing opinions on this. I'm doing this whole feeding thing just to see how the feeding schedule effects the overall health and appearance of the animal, but I am getting more curious about it effecting breeding.

[Dr Satan]

Does anyone have any information as to whether diet and nutrition will effect the outcome of a healthy clutch in any noticeable way, such as higher clutch count, higher hatching rate or anything of the like? I'm interested in hearing opinions on this. I'm doing this whole feeding thing just to see how the feeding schedule effects the overall health and appearance of the animal, but I am getting more curious about it effecting breeding.

andrew you dont need to be a snake breeder to answer these questions... you can find the answers your looking for at school.

btw its cool you doing what your doing... you might want to weigh them with empty stomachs and put the numbers in Excel to make some graphs.

it is said that if you overfeed a large boid they will slug out... first, how does one know if a snake is obese? what is the standard, if there is one?

i know this guy jim who feeds his jamps like crazy (people say his jamps are obese!!) and one of his snakes laid 64 eggs and no slugs.

what you are asking applies to lots of other animals... during a good season where there is lots of food... females will usaully have more babies.

think of rabbits... their litter size is dependent on food availability, the more food available the more babies they have.

i dont think people realize that when these snakes mature their ova, the snake needs enough fat reserves to make yolk. these snakes are built to store fat.

take some time and read the link below...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_history_theory

[Dr Satan]

andrew this book is worth buying... i am glad i have one.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...e=UTF8&s=books

[CeraDigital]

Yeah, I'm working on this. I do know that the animals do need fat reserves to get through the season and to hatch healthy eggs. I've just seen some problems when they're fed larger less frequent. I am keeping these numbers in a program that makes them into graphs and such. The animals are weighed on empty stomachs. I've seen some problems occur when the animal is somewhat obese. I've seen Burmese Pythons that were laid from an obese mother hatch out with problems such as hatching with one eye. I've seen it in two clutches. That's somewhat why I'm doing this. I want to find out overall which method is healthier for the animal. I am looking for a standard for obesity as well in Burmese Pythons, and one can usually tell if they are obese. The one's being fed smaller more frequent meals normally have a more firm and muscular feel to them, although they do have some fat to their body. I can understand feeding the female more before breeding to build their fat stores up, but to keep them fat throughout their life must cause some problems. Fat begins to store in their organs, and will possibly damage the liver. Only time will tell with this little test I'm doing.

[CeraDigital]

Thanks for the article Brian. I just finished reading through it. I can see some valid points in it. However if an animal is fed in abundance, larger meals like some people agree to doing its whole life I cannot see where it would benefit the animals health. I can understand feeding more frequently before breeding season to allow the animals to build up a good fat reserve, but to allow them to build up fat like this their whole life makes me think what kind of damage it could be doing to them. I do know that in larger boids for the most part, excessive fat is claimed to build in their organs. As well as just reading into that I have a different opinion on feeding. Feeding the animals larger less frequent prey items in my opinion isn't as healthy. I see it as them consuming smaller more frequent meals, they get more nutrients out of it because they have more tissue per square inch they are digesting, as well as the prey animal takes less time to digest due to its smaller size. Where as larger less frequent could be less nutritious as the prey item takes much longer to digest, as well as the prey item has less tissue per square inch that the Rock Python is digesting. Only time will tell, and it's one of the reasons I am doing this I can see larger less frequent prey items stressing the animal as well, because it restricts movement more, and the animal has to rest while digesting it leaving it in a vulnerable state. Also a larger prey item in the animals digestive track could do some damage if the animal is picked up at any time, moved the wrong way, moves the wrong way itself etc. These are some of the factors I'm looking into as well as the breeding aspect I had become curious about just recently.

[Mendel's Balls]

Cool experimental design....though at this point with the small number in each group I wouldn't really conclude anything......you're probably falling into confirmation basis if you do.....maybe if you apply some robust statistical methods you could make a more convincing argument that your difference wasn't due to just pure chance.

Since you're plan to make this a very long longitudinal study you should be able to make some more solid conclusions at the end of the 3 yr time frame.

This is very cool check out these x-ray photographs of what goes on inside a Burmese........

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/conten...6/10/1621/FIG2

Also you may want to check out the entire article....http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/206/10/1621

[CeraDigital]

I agree, but there was a reason I selected them from the same clutch. Selecting the animals from different clutches gives more of an arguement that one way or the other had happened just by chance due to their genetic background, where as if they share the same genetic background it supports this less. And all my other Burmese Pythons are fed smaller more frequent meals, as well as my African Rocks. I'm doing this little experiment more for myself, than to argue a point with others. I just wanted to share some of my findings as of now. There are other breeders who feed smaller more frequent which have a much higher success rate with their animals, as well as have over all healthier animals. As of now I am not planning to add more animals to this experiment...

[Mendel's Balls]

I agree, but there was a reason I selected them from the same clutch. Selecting the animals from different clutches gives more of an arguement that one way or the other had happened just by chance due to their genetic background, where as if they share the same genetic background it supports this less. And all my other Burmese Pythons are fed smaller more frequent meals, as well as my African Rocks. I'm doing this little experiment more for myself, than to argue a point with others. I just wanted to share some of my findings as of now. There are other breeders who feed smaller more frequent which have a much higher success rate with their animals, as well as have over all healthier animals. As of now I am not planning to add more animals to this experiment...

Well technically if they arent clones or from a highly inbreed line then the siblings dont have identical genetic backgrounds......meiosis and sexual reproduction ensure a lot of diversity in one clutch.

Still it better to use one clutch then from all different sources.....sometimes you have to do what pratical rather than what's ideal for you to get an experiment done and get some data.

And I know the experiment is for you, rather than publication.....but you should want to convice yourself as rigourously as practically possible. Knowing how much you really know is important to science......

[Dr Satan]

i agree with what your saying andrew (and mike), from my experience there is a differnce in retics and brums as far as activity and behaviour. so my point of view, since all i keep right now is retics, is from a the retic perspective.

the thing with trying to recreate a "standard" natural feeding scheduale is that in the wild there really is no such thing... these animals diets are based on the amount of food available to them... some might be in a location where there are big prey items... for instance that retic that at 11 dogs. that snake found itself the perfect feeding grounds... until the food was gone lol...

see these animals are the product of their environment... and i totally agree its bad to feed heavy for the whole snakes life... but i do think that as neonate and sub adults these animals are on a food bonnanza... i think its good to feed more as they grow and then lighten up as they get older... but push the food before the breeding season.

another thing is when theese animals are hungry... they know no boundries and will go where there is food. i dont know if you notice it with your snakes... but if they are hungry they will cruz the cage - like they are searching for food.