Help with RI requested!

[Chaosangel]

Hi All!

I suspect my BP may have RI (and am planning to take her to the vet tomorrow). Before my questions, a quick description of our set-up and events in the past month relating to temperature:

She is in a Neodesha enclosure with an fake rock "den" (two parts, comes apart and has a hole in to crawl in and out of), a large water dish (big enough for soaking if desired), a fake plant with lots of leaves that spread out and provide cover, and a terracotta plant saucer filled with a thin layer of Repti Bark and one of those half hollowed log "Critter Refuges." I have a humidity gauge in the middle of the enclosure and to gauges for temp - one on either side of the cage, about a third of the way up the back. The heating unit that came with the cage is attached to the bottom and covers two-thirds of the enclosure on the left side. The lamp attachment has a Zoo Med infrared heater in it - it is on the left side as well. The terracotta saucer is on this left side, water and plant are in the middle (plant in front). and the rock den thing is on the right. She spends the majority of her time in the rock den, which has some Esu Reptile Terrarium Moss in the bottom, which I mist (very lightly) with water when replacing it. The bottom is covered in astro-turf.

When temps got cold at the beginning of November, the temperatures dropped from 90-100 on the warm side to 80-85 and from 80-90 on the cool side to about 15 degrees or so lower I closed and covered the vents (yes, I know that was a mistake - messed up circulation of fresh air <sigh>) and got the temp to raise to 80-90 on the warm side and 70-80 on the cool side. I was concerned that she was staying on the cool side, because she liked the rock den, not because she liked the temperature, so I tired moving the rock den around. When I moved it to the warm side or the middle, she still spend most of her time curled up on the cool side. I didn't want to cook her and know that temperatures change in the wild, so I put it back the way it was, so she could have her den back and figured she must know best. (I got her last April, so the temps weren't so low.)

However, today when we were holding her, she started drooling. That is the only symptom we have seen so far ... no popping, gurgling, wheezing, or the (debated) coughing or sneezing. She HAS yawned, but she did that before. The drool is mostly clear, though some is a bit cloudy (not yellow). I looked into her mouth (very gently!!!) and saw no discoloration or sores. She is still eating everything we put in front of her! (Fuzzy rats, thawed.)

We are in the middle of the process of thoroughly cleaning out her cage, which prompted me to come post my questions earlier, rather than later! My questions are:

1. Is there anything I should clean more than usual?

2. Should I leave out something? Perhaps put the den on the warm side and leave in only water, so she is encouraged to get warmer? What about the bark and the moss? Could they cause problems with her respiratory system?

3. I've opened the vents to increase air circulation, but I know this will make the temp drop. What other measures should I take to warm her enclosure for the winter? Another heating pad? Another lamp? A portable heater next to the cage? Or?

4. Is there any reason NOT to hold her? (My husband has very warm hands and has been holding her and keeping her warm since the drool was discovered. She has not drooled since he warmed her up. )

5. I have seen the (I think only) local vet who sees herps in the past with my other snakes ... being the only herp vet, he charges outrageous prices, sometimes over-prescribes (based on what I read on forums like this!), and in general is someone I avoid when I can. :p What SHOULD he do to treat RI? What options will he (likely) offer me that are unnecessary? Is there any information I should be armed with before I go?

Thanks in advance for your replies!

Peggy

[Chaosangel]

I forgot to add that humidity in the cage is typically around 50-55.

Peggy

[JLC]

Could the snake have taken a drink of water before you saw the "drool?" Sometimes they'll let water dribble out of their mouths. If you only saw it one time and no other, along with no other symptoms...it could have been something as simple as that.

It does sound like the enclosure needs to be tweaked some, though. You need to get better control over the temps. 90-100 is too hot and too wide a range...the warm side should be 90-94....and the cool side should be 80-84...and those temps need to be maintained 24/7. Make sure the enclosure is not near anything drafty like a window or door. I cover my enclosure with a thin blanket at night to help keep the night time temps stable...as well as closing up the room its in so its not drafty and all the warmth thats in there stays there. If your enclosure is in a huge open space (like a living room or something) you may need to consider moving it to a small room where you have better control over the ambient temps.

Also...you should have two hides (preferably identical) at a minimum. One on the warm side and one on the cool....that way the snake never has to choose between proper temps and security. If floor-space is an issue, ditch the large water bowl and go smaller...they don't need to soak.

If you truly suspect an RI...bump the temps a couple degrees from what I've already mentioned...and go ahead and make that vet appointment. Only a vet can determine for sure, and IF the snake has an RI, it will require medical intervention.

Good luck with it!

[Chaosangel]

<<Could the snake have taken a drink of water before you saw the "drool?">>

Possibily ... but she had been out of her cage for several minutes AND the slobbery stuff just kept coming after I wiped it off. It finally stopped after wiping her off several times.

<<You need to get better control over the temps. 90-100 is too hot and too wide a range...the warm side should be 90-94....and the cool side should be 80-84...and those temps need to be maintained 24/7.>>

Sounds like we'll need to air condition in the summer! Today, with the vents open, it was just above 90 on the warm side, but 78 on the cool side. I'm on my way to the store to get some sticky tape thermometers ... I want to attach them to the bottom of the cage to see how close the temp on the wall is to the temp lower down. (As heat rises!)

<<I cover my enclosure with a thin blanket at night to help keep the night time >>

I can do that.

<<as well as closing up the room its in so its not drafty and all the warmth thats in there stays there.>>

She's in our bedroom, but it's been fairly chilly because we haven't had the funds to replace the cheap windows. :p My husband is on his way to the store to buy some of that plastic to cover the windows with to see if we can raise the temp without trying to heat the entire house. If that doesn't work, we may be trying to make space in our over-crowded computer room!

<<you should have two hides (preferably identical)>>

I'm on my way to a second store to try to find the right size "rock den." Thanks for the heads up on the identical thing!

<<If floor-space is an issue, ditch the large water bowl and go smaller...they don't need to soak.>>

No, not an issue ... but the large bowl is the only thing that keeps the humidity up anyway. We live in Utah ... pretty low humidity.

<<If you truly suspect an RI...bump the temps a couple degrees from what I've already mentioned...and go ahead and make that vet appointment.>>

I found out that the vet who used to be at our local zoo is working at a clinic ... I have an appointment for tomorrow morning. On temperature ... is holding her a good option, too? Or are 98.6 degree hands too warm?

Thanks so much for the reply!!

Peggy

[Regal Boids]

Sticky tape thermometers are no good. Go with a digital one. The sticky tape ones and the analog ones can be off up to 10 degress or more!

[JLC]

Sounds like we'll need to air condition in the summer! Today, with the vents open, it was just above 90 on the warm side, but 78 on the cool side. I'm on my way to the store to get some sticky tape thermometers ... I want to attach them to the bottom of the cage to see how close the temp on the wall is to the temp lower down. (As heat rises!)

Scoot over to WalMart (or Home Depot or Lowes) and pick up a digital indoor/outdoor thermometer. They cost around $12 or less...and will accurately measure temps on both the warm side and cool side of your enclosure at the same time...as well as the humidity. Far far better than the little stick-on analogue dials.

She's in our bedroom, but it's been fairly chilly because we haven't had the funds to replace the cheap windows. :p My husband is on his way to the store to buy some of that plastic to cover the windows with to see if we can raise the temp without trying to heat the entire house. If that doesn't work, we may be trying to make space in our over-crowded computer room!

Plastic over the windows may help a lot. If you still need more help, you can keep the cage partially covered by the blanket mentioned earlier...so that the blanket covers the side facing the windows at all times.

No, not an issue ... but the large bowl is the only thing that keeps the humidity up anyway. We live in Utah ... pretty low humidity.

That's fine to keep the larger bowl then. I'm in AZ, so I do know "dry"... The best thing I ever did for my snake was ditch the glass box and put her in a plastic sterelite tub. It's not pretty...but it does keep her environment spot-on. I actually have to make a conscious effort to keep the humidity from getting too high. But I understand the desire to have an attractive viv....so that's fine if you can make it work.

I found out that the vet who used to be at our local zoo is working at a clinic ... I have an appointment for tomorrow morning.

Awesome!

On temperature ... is holding her a good option, too? Or are 98.6 degree hands too warm?

Well...the inside of your body is 98.6...the surface of your skin is much cooler. But even if you were feverish, it would be fine to hold her. Not quite the same thing as having a small enclosure that gets too hot.

Thanks so much for the reply!!

Peggy

My pleasure!

[Chaosangel]

First new questions ...

Would a Zoo Med Repti-Temp 500R Remote Sensor Thermostat or a Reptitemp Rheostat be helpful/a worthwhile purchase? http://www.zoomed.com/html/heating_accessories_home.php

<<Sticky tape thermometers are no good. Go with a digital one. The sticky tape ones and the analog ones can be off up to 10 degress or more!>>
<<Scoot over to WalMart (or Home Depot or Lowes) and pick up a digital indoor/outdoor thermometer. They cost around $12 or less...and will accurately measure temps on both the warm side and cool side of your enclosure at the same time...>>

Okay, okay, I understand ... I'll take the strip thermometers back. (I knew they weren't terribly accurate, but I figured they might be a cheap way to get an idea of just how warm/cool the floor was.)

Are you saying that ONE thermometer will measure temps on both sides of the cage? Or to buy more than one?

<<as well as the humidity.>>

Can I assume that you have to look for one that says humidity, too? Don't suppose you have a brand name or a link with a picture?

<<Plastic over the windows may help a lot.>>

Oh, it makes a huge difference .. we did all our windows last year, too. Now if we only had a few thousand for the good, double-paned vinyl windows....

<<The best thing I ever did for my snake was ditch the glass box and put her in a plastic sterelite tub. It's not pretty...but it does keep her environment spot-on.>>

The neodesha worked really well when it had my boa in it. But back then, we were in a different house. I think the main problem is that our entire house isn't is difficult to keep "spot on!"

Thanks again for the replies! It's great to have some place to go when you need info!

Peggy

[JLC]

First new questions ...

Would a Zoo Med Repti-Temp 500R Remote Sensor Thermostat or a Reptitemp Rheostat be helpful/a worthwhile purchase? http://www.zoomed.com/html/heating_accessories_home.php

Don't buy those. The Zoo-Med t-stat is not at all reliable, and if it goes bad while its plugged in, it won't shut the heat off at all, and the mat can reach maximum temps high enough to seriously burn your snake.

A "name brand" rheostat probably costs more than if you just bought a general lamp-dimmer-switch at Home Depot or Lowes. I would recommend buying one of those until you can save up enough money for a reliable t-stat. (Johnson's or Ranco's usually run around $70 or so and work great for a single enclosure or small collection....check out the Reptile Basics ad at the top of the page when you see it next.)

Okay, okay, I understand ... I'll take the strip thermometers back. (I knew they weren't terribly accurate, but I figured they might be a cheap way to get an idea of just how warm/cool the floor was.)

You definitely want to know what the temps are at the floor of the cage...that's where the snake spends most of its time.

Are you saying that ONE thermometer will measure temps on both sides of the cage? Or to buy more than one?

Can I assume that you have to look for one that says humidity, too? Don't suppose you have a brand name or a link with a picture?

One name brand is Acu-Rite. Here's a picture:



The unit itself will measure the "indoor" temp as well as humidity...and an attached cord with a little probe at the end will measure the "outdoor" temps. So you place the unit on the floor of the corner of the "cool" side of your enclosure...and then run the cord under the substrate and place the probe beneath the hide on the warm side.

Sounds to me like you're well on your way to having a perfect set-up! Keep it up, and don't be shy about asking for more clarification or new questions or whatever.

[Chaosangel]

<<Don't buy those. The Zoo-Med t-stat is not at all reliable, and if it goes bad while its plugged in, it won't shut the heat off at all, and the mat can reach maximum temps high enough to seriously burn your snake.>>

But if the mat has only one heat setting, how can it get any higher? Isn’t the thing designed to just turn it down? (Just curious.)

<<A "name brand" rheostat probably costs more than if you just bought a general lamp-dimmer-switch at Home Depot or Lowes.>>

I’ve actually looked for those before … once again, no picture, no product name … and I had no luck finding anything that *I* thought looked like the right thing!

I would recommend buying one of those until you can save up enough money for a reliable t-stat. (Johnson's or Ranco's usually run around $70 or so and work great for a single enclosure or small collection....check out the Reptile Basics ad at the top of the page when you see it next.)

<<You definitely want to know what the temps are at the floor of the cage...that's where the snake spends most of its time.>>

How can I do that without sticking something directly ON the floor? Or do you just mean at floor level and I’m being too literal?

<<One name brand is Acu-Rite. Here's a picture:>>

That was JUST what I needed! It took some searching (finally found one this morning at Shop Ko), but I have one now. Setting it up now! (Come to check the post for your recommendations on placement again.

FYI, the vet said she looked really good. He weighed her as part of the exam, then said he thought that she probably didn’t have RI, but to watch for the symptoms and if any started to show up, he had her weight and could make up a set of antibiotics for me to pick up.

Thanks again for your help!

[JLC]

But if the mat has only one heat setting, how can it get any higher? Isn’t the thing designed to just turn it down? (Just curious.)

Yes, the mat only has one heat setting...and that is typically far too hot. So if your t-stat shuts off and allows it to reach its maximum setting, it can be bad.

I’ve actually looked for those before … once again, no picture, no product name … and I had no luck finding anything that *I* thought looked like the right thing!

Looks like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/...s/162668_3.jpg

How can I do that without sticking something directly ON the floor? Or do you just mean at floor level and I’m being too literal?

Yeah, I just meant floor level. I usually tuck the little probe just under the hide on the warm side, since that's where the snake will likely be spending most of its warm time.

FYI, the vet said she looked really good. He weighed her as part of the exam, then said he thought that she probably didn’t have RI, but to watch for the symptoms and if any started to show up, he had her weight and could make up a set of antibiotics for me to pick up.

Thanks again for your help!

Sounds like everything's going well!