Carmen post-shots, post-shed, funky skin?

[cassandra]

So, Carmen had 10 days of Baytril shots earlier this month for early RI (June 29-July 8), which she still seems to have beaten just fine and she shed for the first time since her shots this past Friday.

Her shed was only a partial, so gave her a little soak and rest came off no problem (note: Carmen does *not* like swimming =P)...anywho...

I noticed that she seems to have little scars (I'm guessing they are scars) at some of the locations I administered shots (as directed by my vet, middle third of her body, slightly away from the spine, just under the skin, don't hit a blood vein, administer in different locations).

I called to ask my vet but she's out today, so I thought I'd ask you guys; I'm guessing whatever these dry, slightly depressed patches of skin are dead, scar-like tissue from the injections or perhaps from the Baytril itself and that they'll most likely come off in a few sheds.

And while I don't have pictures of these little dry patches*, does it sound like something familiar for those who've administered shots or even specifically Baytril to snakes before?

*I can try to get some if y'all think, but it'll probably be difficult with "Miss Wiggle Worm".

[fish21]

yes snakes can have scaring from shots. that is why a lot of people use the injestiable kind. i use injectiable my self. she is young enaugh that i bet when she is full grown you wont even be able to notice.
matt fisher

[cassandra]

Bummer. =( Any thought on if they should or will fade/go away eventually with sheds?

[fish21]

with every shed they will get less and less. but weather or not they go away perminatly is hard to say with out pics.
matt fisher

[goldenburm]

yeah Baytril actually burns the injection site and the tissues into which it is administered. I always use injectable baytril as a last resort if nothng else has worked before. I will dig out some pics I have around on a disc of a royal that was given a 10 day course of baytril and was injected in the same place. Through necrosis the hole left by baytril was the size of a dime and went in 8-10mm! thats a huge wound on a 10 month old BP!

Glad to hear that your boa got over the RI and major Kudos for getting vet treatment early. Perhaps see if there is anything else on the market that is not as invasive.

Also remember to replace the natural gut flora that the anti-biotics destroy, we have a product here in the uk called avi-pro

here is a bit about it:-

This is a veterinary formulated complete probiotic combination of bacteria, enzymes, electrolytes and vitamins. It's high palatability means that in can be added to the drinking water. Avipro is particularly valuable when animals are undergoing stress or veterinary treatment and is useful as an appetite stimulant in reptiles. It can be used for oral rehydration. The live encapsulated bacteria colonise the animals gut for a short time and help in encouraging the right conditions to allow the animals natural gut flora to re-establish itself.AVIPRO is a probiotic combination of bacteria, enzymes, electrolytes and vitamins. Its high palatability means it can be added to the drinking water making its use simple for all species of reptiles. It is also ideal for use by stomach tube in rehydrating reptiles which have become dehydrated. AVIPRO contains: · Lactobacillus with Streptococcus faecium which live for a short time in the gut, helping to stabilise the pH. · Yeasts to provide a source of amino acids and vitamins. · lipase, amylase, protease and cellulase. · electrolytes to aid in maintaining adequate levels in reptiles with diarrhoea which lose electrolytes It is only necessary for probiotics to live a short time to establish the right conditions. By their combined action the ingredients of AVIPRO help to create and maintain slightly acidic conditions in the gut to provide the correct background for the reptiles own flora to re-stabilise. The gut flora of reptiles is poorly studied, whilst it appears dominated by gram-negative organisms gram-positive organisms are present (Cooper, J.E. & Jackson, O.F. 1981. Diseases of the Reptilia, Volume 165-167. It appears likely that gram-positive organisms are important in helping to maintain the correct gut conditions for the 'normal' bacteria much as they are in many animals, such as man. Even man has a predominantly gram-negative gut flora, yet probiotics are valuable in maintaining the gut environment and preventing overgrowth of potentially dangerous gram-negative bacteria which would normally be suppressed such as Salmonella, Pseudomonas etc. The importance of probiotics is not in the healthy animal, but in supporting the stressed or diseased animal where gut conditions may change dramatically. The electrolytes and dextrose incorporated in AVIPRO also contribute in a major way. A very important aspect of this is the use by the veterinary surgeon in reptiles which are under treatment with antibacterials where the normal flora may be unbalanced and a bloom of inappropriate bacteria may occur causing perhaps haemorrhagic enteritis. For support of stressed reptiles use 4g (one scoop) per 100ml of drinking water.

Also something like natural bio yoghurt can help replace the flora in the gut, but I love avi-pro!!

I also use CCF Critical Care formula to help stimulate the snakes digestion

heres a bit about that:-

Concentrated food supplement is formulated for reconstitution with water to provide the energy and amino acids essential for animals which are sick and not feeding. Although originally formulated with birds in mind, keen users have found that CCF is just as effective for parenteral nutrition of reptiles.The product is a mixture of short chain maltodextrins and a protein concentrate supplemented with amino acids. The protein source has been designed to be close to the contents of whole egg protein. Based on available papers and our own extensive trials with veterinarians with a special interest in reptiles we established a blend which achieved the desired effect. Each 100g contains 361 kcal of energy and 14.4g of protein, this aims to provide 4g protein/100kcal. Made up at 1: 2 it provides 1.4kcal/ml, the osmolality is carefully regulated to ensure efficient absorption. The product should be made up freshly each time. It is has great benefits over commonly used liquid formulations of easily digestible carbohydrates in that it is a powder and can be stored until a small amount is needed. The liquid formulations used previously generally only provided carbohydrates and also had to be thrown away 24 hours after opening. CCF in powder form remains stable for months provided that the container is sealed and also provides a suitable protein source which counters the hypoproteinaemic states of catabolism. CCF is used in birds at a dose rate of one scoop per 100g of animal per day, mixing one scoop of CCF with two scoops of water and administering by gavage tube - usually split into two or three feeds. In reptiles the energetics are less well defined and temperature has a role which isn't understood. However 1 scoop per 500g -2kg of animal is in line with current recommendations, dilution should be 1 in 3 or greater. Administering CCF to reptiles every 4-5 days is generally sufficient, extra fluids can be given with AVIPRO. Contraindications, warnings Because CCF is designed to be used at a particular concentration it is dangerous to make the solution more concentrated. Highly concentrated solutions may not move through the gut, sticking to the gut wall and encouraging bacterial growth, this has been found to be particularly a problem in reptiles. In addition such a hyperosmotic solution may draw fluids into the gut and, effectively, dehydrate the patient.


Hope that helps!!


Peter

[Shelby]

Yeah baytril is pretty tough stuff.. my vets like using Fortaz first because it's very gentle on the snake, but it's effective on both gram positive and gram negative infections.

I think Adam has mentioned using it in a more diluted form when he's used it for ball pythons.. not sure on that though.

[cassandra]

Well poop...wish I had known about the after effects of Baytril before administering it...my pretty girl! =(

Peter, thanks for the info; Imma digest that and then give my vet a call, see what she says. I didn't even think about getting the "good bugs" back into her system. It's been nearly 3 weeks since the last shot, so I'm guessing they are back already? She's eaten 3 times since then, no problem...

I'll try to get pictures tonight; the scars are pretty small.

*sigh* Man...now I'm grumpy...my beautiful little snakey has scars *I* gave her! GRRR!!!

I think Adam has mentioned using it in a more diluted form when he's used it for ball pythons.. not sure on that though.

The Baytril seemed pretty diluated...2.7%...but then I don't know if that's diluted or not...and I didn't know about the other product, Fortaz.

[goldenburm]

Hiya Baytril is great as it is a broad band antibiotic, thing is its quite dangerous if not used correctly. U used it correctly as u changed the injection site each time. I had an 11ft burmese on deaths door here about 5 years ago. I was told to take a photo and print it off and every time I injected her I was to mark onto the picture where I did so as not to use the same site twice! Unfortunately I got her too late and after spending approx $1000 on a very ill normal burmese she still did not make it. The best thing to do is if caught early enough get swabs and blood work done if the vets good it shoudl take 2 or 3 days to come back. From that info a specific anti biotic that is not as invasive can be recommended, for the sake of 2 days I often feel its worth it!

Cass do not beat yourself up over it, you did the right thing, you got your snake treated, u did not just up the temps and hope it will clear! So u have nothing not a thing to feel guilty of!

The scars will fade I would say to next to nothing, you will probably after a few sheds never know there was anything there!!! Its only a problem if the same site is used multiply!

Keep up the good work hun!!!



Peter

[cassandra]

Welp, I was able to get a vet's appointment around noon today, so Rick and I took a long lunch and took Carmen in.

My vet said she's never seen a reptile react to sub-cutaenous Baytril injections in "the 20 years she's practiced with reptiles". She prescribed a topical anti-botic, Silvadene 1% (silver sulfadiazine), applied as a thin layer once a day to the 6 "scar" spots (we counted) and set up a check up for next week, all gratus. She also recommended that we remove all cage items (save her water bowl) and replace the aspen with a good fluffy layer of ripped up paper towels (as substrate and to hide in), so she doesn't get any possible infection from the aspen and she'll still have something to bury and hide in.

Anyone heard of Silvadene/silver sulfadiazine?

Oh, vet said that silvadene was developed for human burn victims, but it is a negative (something...what was the word? related to the type of germ, either positive or negative) topical anti-botic and regularly prescribed for reptiles with burns. Sound familiar to anyone?

Rick and I have pretty much decided to find another vet for the snakes; while I know you can't take everything you read on the internet as solid truth, the fact that I found so many references to sub-cutaneous Baytril causing necrotic scars really makes me believe there's gotta be some truth there. I'm bummed - I really like/liked this vet. *sigh*

[Shelby]

Silvadene is great stuff. I used it on my hoggie's nose rub.

I think you are thinking of gram negative.. I guess silvadene is effective against gram negative infections?

I'm not sure you need to find another vet.. plenty of vets prescribe baytril, and I think different species are more resistant to the scarring. I don't really know though.