Is my male "faking it"?

[Adam_Wysocki]

Ball pythons will frequently breed and not produce eggs. Without the proper stimulation, your females won't ovulate and you'll get zip.

Communal housing can actually be working against you in the breeding deparment. Males and females housed together year round are harder to get viable eggs from than when kept separate and then introduced for the purpose of breeding.

If they're still going at it, she's not gravid.

-adam

[dr del]

Ah thankyou,

I wasen't really trying to breed them in the first place so I wont be too disapointed at the negative results - I didn't reduce temperatures or lightcycles last winter or anything.I shall put him back in his own tank then to see if his appetite returns to normal. The other females might just be stuffed ( big rats once a week may be too much ) so I shall give them a week off then try again.


dr del

[tigerlily]

Ah thankyou,

I wasen't really trying to breed them in the first place so I wont be too disapointed at the negative results - I didn't reduce temperatures or lightcycles last winter or anything.I shall put him back in his own tank then to see if his appetite returns to normal. The other females might just be stuffed ( big rats once a week may be too much ) so I shall give them a week off then try again.


dr del

Either you are or you aren't trying to breed. If you have put a male in a tank with three females, you are obviously attempting to breed. Given that you don't have the income, I would think trying to incubate and feed juveniles would require more money than you have available. I would seriously advise taking a more structured approach. Research the requirements necessary for a successful breeding season.

I understand the initial dislike of racks, but in reality they are easier to heat than tanks. A different option would be to go for an enclosure like this. I love the rack system I have now. I only have 6 and consider them pets. Everyone gets named, and I couldn't love them more. The rack has been a godsend, since my house is a bit on the cool side and it's waaayyy easier to heat than the aquariums. The animals thrive in these racks. Better environment = A snake that thrives.

[dr del]

**sigh** Hi tigerlily,


from my original post;

So I left him in the tank with the females ( I normally house the 3 females in one tank and had put him in while I was spring cleaning his - hadn't thought about the breeding thing as I didn't cool them down in the winter but had lowered the daylight hours).

I do know the requirements for successfull breeding - I wasn't trying to breed them. The incubator is already running for the cornsnake that I was intentionally trying to breed this year so the cost would have been slightly raising the incubators temps and enough food for me to be certain they were eating ok before swapping them to the herp store for rats - which would probably have been covered by the corn snake hatchlings but wouldn't have killed me for a couple of weeks anyway.

The tank you linked to is indeed the kind of thing I was talking about building out of lumber.I realise its selfish but I get a great deal of pleasure from looking over and seeing my little wrigglers wandering about the cage and ,obviously, you dont get that with a rack system. No one yet has bothered answering my questions about whether flexwatt (or its british alternative) will be able to sustain the temperature reliably and without that I'm sticking with ceramics - which come in at around $160 or so each tank by my calculations/conversions.It also requires some carefull designing of the tank owing to the heat produced etc.

Also I don't use aquariums (never seen one yet I'd describe as escape proof to a large royal) ,my tank is made of wood on 5 sides with the heating and lighting recessed and gaurded on the top panel with an enclosure above it housing the thermostats and starters. The front of the enclosure being sliding glass doors which can be removed for cleaning - the inner edge of which is protected by rubber edging ( fitted round the cage lock) in case any of the pythons decide to rub against it.I've never seen mine do this but figured better safe than sorry.

I fully agree (and have never disagreed ) that one animal per enclosure is the best way to keep them - I just said it wasn't possible for me to arrange it that way at the moment.And although I know it carries no weight at all with any of you I have been keeping and breeding various reptiles for over a decade without any major problems and have 4 lovely royals who have never shown any signs of stress - I can't even get them to curl into the "ball" shape in order to take a picture of it. Aside from the male having a slight respiritory infection when I got him none of them have ever needed anything but a check up and sex determination at the local vetinary college. I'm sorry to come across as all defensive but I asked what I thought were a couple of simple questions and ended up feeling like this weeks punching bag.

Also the best way I have found to recognise if an animal is happy and healthy in its environment is to observe its behaviour, does it thermoregulate normally, does it drink, does it exhibit unusual behaviours (stargazing,twitching,bubbly mucus,unusual body positions ) etc. How do you determine these things in an opaque rack setup? Are there some stress indicators I am not aware of? don't be afraid to list them for me as I'm sure there are some I genuinely don't know.

As an addendum I have occasionally caught both the larger females lying belly up (last half of their bodies only ) in their wet box in the last couple of weeks if, as now seems likely, they are not gravid does anyone have any advice about this? I'm almost frightened to ask honestly but you are the largest body of knowledge on this subject I could find. As I also said in the first post I thought I saw a definate mid body swelling (ovulation) in the 2 largest - this is why I was asking about multiple matings.If they are not gravid (and Adam knows a heck of a lot more than I do about it so I'll take his word for it) what could this have been - it was mid week I noticed it and I feed rats on mondays and am used to seeing what a full python looks like.

Do they suffer from "false pregnancy" like my mothers dog?


I guess I'll know for certain what is happening with them in a couple of months or so.


dr del

[Emilio]

Wow this bring's back some memorie's. P.S , I want a rack soon!!!!

[ddbjdealer]

How do you determine these things in an opaque rack setup?

You still check on them daily... replace water... clean urates and poop... etc.. The sterilite bins are not completely opaque... they're clear, and it's fairly easy to see what's going on in them.

Are there some stress indicators I am not aware of? don't be afraid to list them for me as I'm sure there are some I genuinely don't know.

As soon as you seperate them into their own enclosures, they'll show you what normal behavior is like. (Sorry to keep pounding you with this)

As I also said in the first post I thought I saw a definate mid body swelling .......what could this have been

Females will continue to build folicles when they are mature regardless of being introduced to a male. I doubt that if you actually saw an ovulation, you could mistake it for the swelling that happens during building vs ovulation... but without seeing it in Ball Pythons, maybe it can be mistaken. If a female ovulates, it will look like they swallowed a HUGE football. (or rugby ball possibly for you ) It's not just the middle of their body... its from about 6-8 inches from their head to all the way down to about 4-6 inches from their tails.. Look at some pictures of ovulations on the web. It looks like they're almost like.... Head.... HUGENESS.... tail.

Without the folicles that they are building all year long being fertilized by viable sperm, the folicles will simply be reabsorbed... no ovulation will occur to actually build the eggs... no nothin. Adult females go through a LOT of changes throughout their lives.. whether alone, or paired with males.

Yes.. is the answer to your flexwatt question. If it's used correctly, and paired with a proper thermostat, it will have no problems keeping temps for you. The problem(s) may be that you're letting your room that you house your snakes in vary in temps far too greatly. 15 degrees celcius worth of variation is HUGE. During the colder times during the year when it gets down to 10 degrees C, you may need a smaller section of flexwatt on yet ANOTHER thermostat to keep the "cool" side a little warmer. 27-28 degrees on the cool side, 33-34 on the warm side. With about a 29-30 degree ambient air temp.
(I did all the conversions for you so it'd be easier to read/understand ) From a "budget" standpoint, this may not be the most ecconomical way to go... but its the best option for your snakey kids.

On a side note... Please don't feel that anyone's attacking you. Just know that we're all just as passionate about our animals as you are about yours. We want the best for your animals.... If you could afford it, I'm sure you'd have 4 setups just like the one you have for your females.... but the simple fact of it is, that it's not necessary. You can get by with far less than what you're THINKING you'll need to spend. Trust me!

Hope this helps and doesn't come off as demeaning or in an attacking way.

[dr del]

Hi again ddbjdealer,

Ok - that helps - I thought the racks were completely opaqe to prevent light bothering the snakes and I'd really hate not being able to watch them when im sitting watching tv at night (and before anyone complains they can't see the tv as the couch is in the way from their point of view )

As soon as you seperate them into their own enclosures, they'll show you what normal behavior is like. (Sorry to keep pounding you with this)

It's ok pound away ( I think I'm getting used to it ) so you mean they'll stop acting exactly like my male who lives on his own and has done for his entire life as far as I can tell?

Ah thank you for the folicle thing - yes the swelling I saw was definately more centred in the middle/slightly lower end of the body their necks still looked normal - in the big female I'd say it swelled to a size just slightly narower than a 2 litre bottle of coke at the widest and tapers quite sharply - was only about 18 inches in length really .I can't think of another way to describe that but it was definately restricted to the middle/lower body not the whole length of the snake.

Thankyou for the answer to the flexwatt question - sadly there isn't a lot I can do about the temperature fluctuation as I don't have central heating or double glazed windows ( it's quite an old tenement) and , well, scotland is a land of extremes - some days it doesn't even rain. :eek: This is sadly why I think it costs so much to heat the snake tanks - there needs to be considerable reserve capacity in case we have a cold snap. You should try sleeping in the room without the heater in the winter - I even have a ceramic hot water bottle for my toes when I think no-one is looking.

I do keep the temps in the various enclosures at the right level via thermostats but by god you should see my electricity bill in the winter

And thankyou for the last paragraph - it was perfectly judged and kind of you to take the time to write it. I guess I might have bin a little sensetive as it's been one of those days, it started with the freezer failing and me opening it to get breakfast and getting a face full of defrosted rat - had to throw out a whole shelf's worth of snake food.

Here's hoping I get another job soon and plan an integrated stacking unit (similar to a couple of those boaphile things side by side ) for all my snakes that deserves to have the "hilton" sign at the top .

** off topic**
While I'm here does anyone have any opinions on putting a little nutrobal on the occasional pinky for hatchling corns? - getting a little ahead of myself as she's only just had her pre-lay shed but thought I'd ask.
**off topic**


dr del

[adizziedoll]

Females will continue to build folicles when they are mature regardless of being introduced to a male. I doubt that if you actually saw an ovulation, you could mistake it for the swelling that happens during building vs ovulation...

Without the folicles that they are building all year long being fertilized by viable sperm, the folicles will simply be reabsorbed... no ovulation will occur to actually build the eggs... no nothin. Adult females go through a LOT of changes throughout their lives.. whether alone, or paired with males.

OKAY, so now IM confused.. LOL So females have a noticable "build" if they aren't gravid? I had a male with a female (really?) and they stopped breeding. Then a couple days later i noticed the build, so i didn't put him back in with her. She has had this build for weeeeeeeeeeeeks now (they were together, lock observed, 4/16), but i never noticed a real ovulation (not that i've ever seen one, but i get this idea like i would know one if i saw one ). Not trying to hijack, I SWEAR......

[tigerlily]

so I shall give them a week off then try again.

I'm sorry, if I came off I bit critical, but when I first read this I thought you were going to be reintroducing the male to the females, and instead was referring to the feeding. I apologize. It's still not the best of situations to put a male into a cage with 3 females, and not to expect some incidental breeding.

I can concur with the visibility on the racks. I can just sit and watch them, and I do. (A LOT ) I find it much easier to clean and heat, and I too have a monster heating bill. So I can sympathize with you there. Although I have to admit, that room is my favorite in the winter.

I couldn't agree more with Ken. I think he said everything perfectly.

Females can build follicles, but reabsorb them. I think that might be the slight swelling you are witnessing, but I'm not positive.

[ddbjdealer]

(lock observed, 4/16), but i never noticed a real ovulation (not that i've ever seen one, but i get this idea like i would know one if i saw one

That's only 22 days ago... There's a pre-ovulation shed that hapens before the actual ovulation.. and then you see ovulation, and THEN you see a pre-lay shed, and then you see eggies...

There's a specific timeline for just about all of it.