I used the No with scruff holding. Worked good for my guys, 2 of them at least. IMO they learn alot better when younger, I think they get more stubborn about bad habits as they get older. Cause I got one that we cannot let roam the house without someone being right there to monitor him, he is old, and the person that had him before us, left him in a cage with his own excrement all the time with no cleaning, so now he likes to use the rest of the house when given that option. And scruffing does not work, he looks at ya like "yeah right lady, get over yourself". I have tried everything possible, but it seems to be a habit not easily broken now.