Will my python ever recover?

[leosantare]

She has never been in contact with any other snakes. I handled some wild rat snakes outside a few times but, I was sure to wash my hands well before getting close to my python.

When she had mites I reached out to others for help since it was my first time dealing with them. I used prevent a mite and some type of insect killer. I would best describe this insect killer as a thin, yellow, square shaped piece of material. I cut a small piece of it and put inside a little cage I made. Then, I put this tiny cage inside her cage and suspended it from the ceiling. I also soaked her daily with a few drops of dawn, cleaned her entire cage daily and vacuumed the room daily. To this day, it was one of the most stressful times of my life. I was very concerned about using the insect killer but that is what finally did the trick. Plus, I was told by multiple people that it was okay as long as I didn't have any arachnids near by. If the insect killer were to harm her, I think it would have happened a long time ago. She got the mites from some bedding I bought at petsmart. That's the only was she could have because she didn't have any when I first got her.

Since there is no way to treat both nidovirus and IBD, I don't see much sense in testing for it. Especially when he test is inaccurate and in no way will help the python.

I'm going to make another vet appointment for an examination and discussion. If they are unable to convince me they can get her better, I will have her euthanized. This has been going on too long and things are getting worse. I feel like I'm holding a close to dead snake, she has barely moved at all in 3 days. I'm sure she will stop eating soon or start regurgitating. Why let it get to that point?

If I were to test for these viruses, I would have my vet do it. They told me months ago it will require sedation since she has to be swapped about 8" down the mouth. They also told me the test is not 100% accurate. I can also do the CT scan as a last try.

What do you guys/girls think I should have my vet do? Is there anything I should mention/ask my vet when I go? I am definitely 100% taking her to my vet this week.

Thanks for the support,

[Malum Argenteum]

She got the mites from some bedding I bought at petsmart. That's the only was she could have because she didn't have any when I first got her.

There's a good chance that those were harmless detrivorous mites. When I was a novice snake keeper, I had that mix up (figured it out before I started treating with anything, thankfully), and many new keepers of all sorts of herps misidentify the many ubiquitous and harmless critters as parasites.

Though this has been said in this thread more than a few times already, nothing about the situation as it has been described here looks like a reason for euthanasia. It looks like a slightly aged snake is slowing down, though a snake that is accepting prey as it is offered is a snake that hasn't slowed down much.

And for context, as a breeder I'm quite quick to euthanize herps I produced if they have malformations (though I have gifted some to someone I know who has a big heart and a lot of free time) or other conditions that would make them an unsuitable captive, or for genetic issues that I worry would be passed along in breeding. But animals that I have any sort of 'pet' attachment to (including some retired breeders) I treat like I would any pet: I see them through their whole lives, including the part at the end so long as they're not obviously in actual and non-negligible physical pain.

[Bogertophis]

...I'm going to make another vet appointment for an examination and discussion. If they are unable to convince me they can get her better, I will have her euthanized. This has been going on too long and things are getting worse. I feel like I'm holding a close to dead snake, she has barely moved at all in 3 days. I'm sure she will stop eating soon or start regurgitating. Why let it get to that point?

If I were to test for these viruses, I would have my vet do it. They told me months ago it will require sedation since she has to be swapped about 8" down the mouth. They also told me the test is not 100% accurate. I can also do the CT scan as a last try.

What do you guys/girls think I should have my vet do? Is there anything I should mention/ask my vet when I go? I am definitely 100% taking her to my vet this week.

Thanks for the support,

You're really over-thinking this- please do hold off on vet appointments until you have a really good reason to need one -they're stressful for your snake, & obviously you too. Let your snake eat & digest a number of meals in peace- stress is bad for everybody's health- & please keep an open mind about the state of your snake's health. Plenty of snakes will lay around (not moving) for days at a time (especially when they're digesting, OR, in a shed cycle) and it doesn't mean there's ANY thing wrong. I've kept many (!) snakes for decades (not this species) & staying low-key & just "TLC" (good food & good environment) can do wonders for keeping snakes healthy- that's how their immune system functions best.

And by the way, as a life-long "dog companion", I feel your pain & I'm very sorry about your dog's diagnosis- especially for only being 6 years old- that seems so unfair. I'd be a mess too, about that.

[jmcrook]

please do hold off on vet appointments until you have a really good reason to need one -they're stressful for your snake

+1 on this. According to weight records from your vet and the dates you've provided, this animal has been to the vet at least 11 times since october according to the information you've provided. Including 4 visits in less than 10 days (10/27-11/5). That will greatly stress out any living thing on earth

[leosantare]

I had to take her to the vet every (3) days for (1) month for antibiotic injections. She was only there for less than 5 minutes during these visits.

The only focus right now is the new feeding schedule to see if she can start gaining weight. I am going to feed (2) medium rats that equal 5% of her body weight, (about 390g) every 10 days. Does anyone see a problem with this?

In one month from now, I will get her weight and let everyone know. If she still hasn't gained weight or even worse, lost more weight, then I know for sure something is very wrong.

I will continue giving the probiotics, only putting it in the rat's oral cavity, it just won't be all that much. You recommend giving her B vitamins also, which ones should I get? What should I think about the one bloodwork showing inclusion bodies and the following bloodwork not showing inclusion bodies? Should I have more bloodwork to get a better idea? I remember my vet saying that it could be because each python species has a unique blood cell. The pathologist could have been mistaken due to her being a Boelens python.

[bcr229]

The only focus right now is the new feeding schedule to see if she can start gaining weight. I am going to feed (2) medium rats that equal 5% of her body weight, (about 390g) every 10 days. Does anyone see a problem with this?

I don't though by the time my snakes get up to taking feeders that size I prefer to feed rabbits over rats, as the rats that size are old retired breeders so they have a lot of body fat. See if you can find someone local to you who produces meat rabbits, it's cheaper getting them from a local supplier than buying them online.

[Bogertophis]

I had to take her to the vet every (3) days for (1) month for antibiotic injections. She was only there for less than 5 minutes during these visits.

The only focus right now is the new feeding schedule to see if she can start gaining weight. I am going to feed (2) medium rats that equal 5% of her body weight, (about 390g) every 10 days. Does anyone see a problem with this?

In one month from now, I will get her weight and let everyone know. If she still hasn't gained weight or even worse, lost more weight, then I know for sure something is very wrong.

I will continue giving the probiotics, only putting it in the rat's oral cavity, it just won't be all that much. You recommend giving her B vitamins also, which ones should I get? What should I think about the one bloodwork showing inclusion bodies and the following bloodwork not showing inclusion bodies? Should I have more bloodwork to get a better idea? I remember my vet saying that it could be because each python species has a unique blood cell. The pathologist could have been mistaken due to her being a Boelens python.

Please stop obsessing over her weight!- she looks fine & the small amount you've been stressing over truly isn't important. But the stress you're causing her IS or could be a problem.

I see nothing wrong with medium rats, but I wouldn't feed large or jumbo rats, simply because they're older, retired breeder rats, with a high fat content & are less healthy for a snake to consume.

I also would not try to change to rabbits right now- in case for some reason she doesn't like them & doesn't want to eat- why even open that "can of worms"? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Also, a snake's weight will fluctuate according to the amount of food being anywhere along in the digestive tract- and their weight does not truly change significantly in a month's time! It just doesn't. Stop all this nonsense.

Do NOT give B vitamins orally- they're not effective. B vitamins are best injected by a veterinarian, but PLEASE to not rush into yet another appointment to do this. The likely harm (from stress) could outweigh any benefit. Your snake is eating well & getting PLENTY of nutrition from her meals- the only indication for B vitamin injections is a SICK snake, & that you do NOT appear to have. Relax!

I think the one bloodwork showing possible inclusion bodies was probably flawed or misread- as your vet already explained to you. I would NOT get more bloodwork done!!! Your snake appears to be quite healthy. She even has nice iridescence in your photos- that's not a sick snake.

[Malum Argenteum]

All of them. It would not hurt to use some vitamin A, C, D, E, ... , too.

Yes, it absolutely would be expected to hurt. Feeder rodents are widely accepted to have sufficient levels of Vitamin D. "Metabolic bone disease is [...] uncommon to rare in snakes as they usually eat whole food items and absorb adequate dietary levels of calcium and vitamin D3" (source). "...rodents are a completely balanced diet" (Maders' Reptile Medicine, p. 216). More Vitamin D than is sufficient is not better.

Since nearly all supplement dusts use calcium carbonate as an active ingredient or carrier, and since rodents have a perfect ratio of calcium to phosphorus, increasing the level of calcium in the diet would be counterproductive.

By far most importantly, domestic feeder rodents are known to have borderline toxic to toxic levels of Vitamin A (source: Mader's Reptile Medicine, p 206 and feeder analysis chart pp 218-219). Accepted overdose rates of Vitamin A are 16,000 - 24,000 IU/kg of food; small to large rats contain 30,00 - 60,000 IU/kg. Shotgunning Vitamin A in rodent feeding herps is absolutely contraindicated.

Misdosing Vitamin A has a bad history in herpkeeping, BTW. Many turtle species were overdosed on Vitamin A when such practices were in fashion in the 1980s; this lead to a "preformed Vitamin A is toxic" scare that was addressed by using only pre-Vitamin A (carotenoids) in supplements. These supplements still exist, and currently are misused by hobby keepers for species that do not metabolize carotenoids to Vitamin A (with regular fatalities in amphibians, which seem unusually susceptible to hypovitaminosis A).