Ball python neglect help

[Bogertophis]

There water does get changed daily because even though they didn't show signs of mites or I didn't see mites they definitely have them so water changes is daily right now, but if it's better for the vitamin to do it that way then I will,

The calcium powder I tend to just rub a bit into the butt end of the rodent.
They are f/T I was breeding my own rodents but the dust from them wasn't doing my own health any favours so had to give that up.
He has a great food response I went to change his water today he thought it was food and bit me lol I think everything we was told about how he wouldn't eat rodents etc was just rubbish and it's just blatant neglect but it's all evidence against him for the case against him if they intend to which is very likely.
Thank you though for all the advice iv had neglected animals in my care before but never this bad I cried when I saw him.

It's just that you'll get more of the vitamins INTO the snake this way (oral cavity of the rodent). You might have to pry open the dead rodents mouth a little so be careful, their teeth can be sharp.

If you know a snake definitely has mites, you need to address that quickly- they can multiply exponentially (NOT kidding!), & overwhelm (kill) a snake, just by the "little bit of blood" each one sucks out. Mites are also thought to spread disease among snakes.

It's so awful, the way some ppl neglect & mistreat animals.

[Malum Argenteum]

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.

*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

[Nakoa]

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.
*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

I do understand what you are saying, he is being given supplements via exotic vet recommendation and is under regular checks with them, they are at the moment believing that he has gone longer than a year without proper nutrition and its very likely he is lacking in a lot to keep him healthy, he is only being supplemented with a very small dose till they can take samples from him, the samples from the other snakes havent come back yet.

As for the mites they have been treated with frontline and currently with turrus mites to kill off any left alive and the stuff the turrus mites come in is always in the water bowls in the morning along with 1 or 2 dead mites.

[Bogertophis]

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.

*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

Thanks for sharing & clarifying all this information. Personally, I haven't supplemented my snake's food in many years. Mainly it was only when I bred some, & it was only an occasional thing- which is pretty much the same the way I take my own vitamins too- I try not to over-do it, as I eat very healthy foods for the most part.

[Albert Clark]

I was under the impression that most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient due to the inadequate uva/uvb light absorption from the sun. We provide artificial lighting to help supplement those reptiles that are diurnal so that the sub optimal calcium and phosphorus can be utilized. Ball pythons are underground and termite mound dwellers and are nocturnal so I don’t think they fall into the category normally. I thought the sunlight / artificial lighting was necessary for the uptake and utilization of calcium?

[Malum Argenteum]

I was under the impression that most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient due to the inadequate uva/uvb light absorption from the sun. We provide artificial lighting to help supplement those reptiles that are diurnal so that the sub optimal calcium and phosphorus can be utilized. Ball pythons are underground and termite mound dwellers and are nocturnal so I don’t think they fall into the category normally. I thought the sunlight / artificial lighting was necessary for the uptake and utilization of calcium?

Well, I don't think it is true that "most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient ". Most are doing just fine. Maybe that's not how you intended that sentence to come out, though.

Captive reptiles that do have hypocalcemia may indeed have it due to inadequate levels of Vitamin D, since D3 is necessary for dietary calcium absorption. Many, or even most, reptiles we keep in captivity can utilize dietary D3 well (strict herbivores tend to be exceptions; they don't seem to utilize dietary D3 well). Almost all captive herp species (even nocturnal ones, since cutaneous D3 production is probably a conserved evolutionary trait) can in fact use UVB to manufacture D3. The only exception I've read about are some species of Varanus that cannot quite make enough D3 from sunlight and need some in their diet, which they typically get in no short supply. Not all species have been studied on this, of course, not by a long shot. I personally think dietary dosing (when D3 needs to be supplemented, that is) makes infinitely more sense when possible, since it is cheap and easy and foolproof, none of which is the case with captive UVB. But that's another topic, maybe.

All of this, though, is independent of the need for a correct Ca/P ratio in food. UVB exposure will not produce calcium, and will not correct a dietary imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. All animals need a dietary source of the proper ratio of Ca and P, and also need adequate blood levels of D3 (either from the diet, or UVB, or both).

Reptiles that eat primarily whole rodent (or other whole terrestrial vertebrate) prey have no shortage of dietary D3, nor of calcium or phosphorus in a fairly acceptable ratio.

[Albert Clark]

Well, I don't think it is true that "most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient ". Most are doing just fine. Maybe that's not how you intended that sentence to come out, though.

Captive reptiles that do have hypocalcemia may indeed have it due to inadequate levels of Vitamin D, since D3 is necessary for dietary calcium absorption. Many, or even most, reptiles we keep in captivity can utilize dietary D3 well (strict herbivores tend to be exceptions; they don't seem to utilize dietary D3 well). Almost all captive herp species (even nocturnal ones, since cutaneous D3 production is probably a conserved evolutionary trait) can in fact use UVB to manufacture D3. The only exception I've read about are some species of Varanus that cannot quite make enough D3 from sunlight and need some in their diet, which they typically get in no short supply. Not all species have been studied on this, of course, not by a long shot. I personally think dietary dosing (when D3 needs to be supplemented, that is) makes infinitely more sense when possible, since it is cheap and easy and foolproof, none of which is the case with captive UVB. But that's another topic, maybe.

All of this, though, is independent of the need for a correct Ca/P ratio in food. UVB exposure will not produce calcium, and will not correct a dietary imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. All animals need a dietary source of the proper ratio of Ca and P, and also need adequate blood levels of D3 (either from the diet, or UVB, or both).

Reptiles that eat primarily whole rodent (or other whole terrestrial vertebrate) prey have no shortage of dietary D3, nor of calcium or phosphorus in a fairly acceptable ratio.

Ok, gotcha! The D3 is the necessary ingredient for the utilization and uptake of calcium. I know uvb / uva doesn’t produce calcium/ phosphorus it was my impression that the rays and exposure helped intrinsically for it to be utilized and remain at optimal levels. Thanks for the correction. So the calcium containing D3 is the one someone should look for? Or the one vet recommended.