Bad Eggs and Embryos (Warning: Graphic Content)

[Mehelya]

Well, as the title says. I had a first time female lay eggs for me, and they went bad, one by one, and seeing as I had never really bothered before in checking the eggs on the inside (colubrid eggs are so small), I decided to open them up, and see if I could see anything that caused their deaths. I made very sure that the embryos were well and truly dead before opening them up. A complete loss of veins (often showing as a red hue when candled, was not present), no movement from the embryos from the torch light (Never more than a few seconds of shining in, to avoid the embryo moving and tangling the umbilical chord), and most importantly, mold taking over the eggs (wiped off for the purpose of the pictures), with a "bad" smell emanating from the still closed egg. Even with all those cues, I still made small incisions first, and gently prodded the embryos to make sure there was no movement at all.

Well, I couldn't see anything that pinpointed a cause of death, but I managed to grab some interesting photos which I don't think too many people get to see, or particularly want to. So, if you're squeamish, rather click on the morphs section, look at all the pretty colors, and rather have happy thoughts.


The mother, with her freshly laid clutch. 5 seemingly good eggs, which ended up candling with good veins, and 3 duds. not bad for a first time mom. A long awaited project coming to fruition.


Pretty early, the one egg went off quickly, so I tossed it asap, and the remaining 4 started to show weird shell abnormalities (humidity and temps were perfect all the way through). They seemed to develop "windows", and a very "wrinkly skin" effect, with thickened sections, and then the mold started as a fine white fuzzy mist.


The remaining eggs went off at various stages, and the first of them was a few weeks through the incubation process.


The next one died near the halfway point.


Just over the middle of incubation, the next one went for a loop. Can see the lack of blood in the now empty veins, and the cloudy amniotic fluid.


Same snake, but with the amniotic sac removed somewhat. Can see the yolk underneath it. and can see the pattern faintly starting to form.


This was the last egg of the clutch. It died about 2 weeks before it was due to hatch. I noticed it was dead because of a lack of veins showing up on the shell when being candled, and no movement from the embryo shadow over a few days. Note the thickened amniotic sac.


With the embryo removed, you can see the thickened amniotic sac better, and the yolk at the base, covered in veins.


Some pics of the removed embryo. it was really sad to see this, because the baby looks so nice, and I've been waiting to see what this particular pairing would produce, but I guess I'll be waiting another season.




Close up of the head. Not sure if it was still forming, or if is that shape from an abnormality.


Pic showing genitals everted, and the umbilical chord going into the belly, and if you look carefully, you can see some fat cells inside the opening.


Again, I made absolutely sure the embryos inside the eggs were well and truly dead before I attempted to open any of them. I do not suggest anyone do this unless the egg is 1000% guaranteed not viable. Opening an egg too early with a living embryo has a whole host of it's own problems to tend with, although I'm sure I've seen a post somewhere about something along the lines of an open egg with a living embryo that made it full term.

For those that looked, thank you for your time.

[Albert Clark]

Sorry for the losses. What was the pairing that produced these eggs? Are they colubrid eggs or ball python eggs? I must have missed something. I know you mentioned earlier that colubrid eggs are so small but the picture is of a ball python around a clutch. Do you think at some point there was a temperature spike in the incubator? How soon did you take the eggs from the female and place them in the incubator? Once again, sorry for the loss.

[Bogertophis]

Mehelya- better luck next time- -so sorry for the bad turn-out, but thanks for sharing your photos.

[Erie_herps]

I'm sorry about how the eggs turned out, good luck next season. These pictures are very interesting though. Thanks for sharing.

[Bayalicious]

Oh man. Sorry for the loss, I tried to incubate chickens and had many failed eggs, I only hatched one egg that survived. So I know the feeling of disappointment. Thank you for sharing, as a newer snake owner I don't know much about the incubation process or the egg development process. This is very educational for me. I hope she has a better go around the next time!

Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk

[nikkubus]

So heartbreaking when that happens, I'm sorry!

[Lord Sorril]

Losing an entire clutch is brutal...great photos though. Thanks for sharing!

I necropsy my dead eggs as well. I would definitely be examining my incubator in this case.

[Mehelya]

Albert Clark, sorry, I could have worded that better. I've never bothered cutting bad eggs open before, because i worked mostly with colubrids and venomous species up until a few years ago, and their eggs aren't nearly as large as ball eggs... and they were removed within a few hours of her having finished laying them. And I watch the thermostat like a hawk, being a stay at home dad, I get that wonderful opportunity to stress every hour of the day while watching them cook... lol.

Strangely, after lots of misses over the years, you'd think you get used to it, but there's always that pit feeling when you see eggs go bad.

Thanks everyone for the sympathy. I'll try the pairing one more time next season, and see what happens.

Albert Clark, the pairing was these two (old pic from last year sometime, they're fatter than they appear. Amazing how a camera puts pounds onto a human, but takes them off snakes...):

Unknown lineage, but I liked their wonky patterns and wanted to see if they'd reproduce that in any way in their offspring.

Lord Sorril, I put in new electronics about 2 months before the first clutch was laid, and tested it during that time with analog, and separate digital thermostats and a temp gun throughout. Readings were well within parameters, and very low variance during that time, so I was happy to put them in the incubator. I've had two other clutches hatch successfully (minus the duds) in the same incubator already this season. But, I will recheck everything once the last two babies in there have had their first shed, and moved into their new homes.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks. What was the incubation humidity percentage ? Also, what was the substrate that you incubated with ? My questions are due to the importance of the first couple of weeks of incubation being the most vulnerable for developmental issues. Trying to see where the potential was outside of genetic.

[Mehelya]

Humidity was around 80% to 90% with some condensation around the tub walls, just above the substrate line, and temps were averaged at 31. I cook a little lower, because the babies tend to come out bigger, and more willing to eat, but that's just my personal observation, as well as to compensate for any possible temp spikes. Fluctuations were never more than around 0.5° either way, except for two power outages that we had on separate days, but it barely made a difference to the temps, as it happened during warm days, and only lasted for an hour or so each time. I used a mixture of 1:1 vermiculite perlite, and mixed that with 75% (weight ratio) sterile water.

Another clutch of 5 hatched out 2-3 weeks before these were due, in the shelf above these, and another clutch of two is busy hatching in the same incubator on the same shelf as these, so I'm pretty confident my substrates, temps and humidity are within norms. Probably just one of those things that happens I guess.