Thanks guys. I have been looking into cinnamon and more importantly gen stripe which seems to be very promising and taking the orange further than lots of others, including taking the orange further out in time than the super short lived CG and Ban which are truly spectacular but for so short a time. And yes I have seen lots of yellow but again the point of the thread was exactly that.....i was asking to see if anyone HELD their juvenile coloration specifically orange hue. Thanks for sharing, hope it holds...again personally I believe cinnamon and gen strip will ultimately be part of the key to getting us there.