How to Resolve Persistent Obesity

[puddinck]

If I find more pics maybe I will start a thread in the proper place. I didn't have any digital either I just used my cell to take a photo of a photo. I know I have some of him full grown somewhere... He was slightly over 4' when I gave him up and likely grew more at the reptile rescue.

He was wild caught by my then boyfriend when just a neonate.
A bunch of fence lizards were upset by something and caught Chris's eye. He went to investigate and found the young rattlesnake. I don't really know why he captured it but probably to please me. We found out later (after it defecated) that it had been eating the lizards. In fact I had to cut off the whiskers of the first few mice I offered because the snake would cringe and recoil when it brushed against them. I wasn't about to sacrifice any lizards! Didn't take long to adjust though, whiskers and all.

I always had a sense of guilt over taking him but we were always seeing them run over on the road or hearing about people killing them "just because". He seemed really content in captivity. No nose rubbing and very little restlessness. I still miss his beautiful head. So wicked!

[puddinck]

Nice that you did some conservation, outreach, and education!
I can kind of understand people's fear, especially with young children or pets. I just hate those who feel it necessary to kill.

I've never seen or heard about any of our native snakes chasing anyone down...

Yes it was pretty funny watching the young snake kill his mouse and then get the willies every time he tried to swallow it. Wish I'd recorded it but smart phones weren't around yet.

Love Gary Larson!

[puddinck]

Update! It's been almost two years since I started this thread and I am back to ask for more advice...

My poor corn snake has been dieting this entire time and has lost considerable (?) weight going from almost 1300 grams down to 1053 grams.

I fed a small adult mouse every two weeks for the first year and then switched to a medium adult mouse every two weeks for the second year. I provided as much opportunity for exercise as time allowed and painfully ignored all hungry behaviors...

It is once again time to place my annual Layne Labs order and would I would really like to reward my long suffering snake with a decent meal or two. Is it too soon to bump up to large adult mice? Or maybe alternate large and medium adult mice?

I realize that my snake is still considered "heavy" for it's size (4.3') but it's spinal ridge is becoming fairly prominent which bothers me. I am also concerned that continuing such restrictive rations will end up causing more issues than the obesity itself?

Thanks in advance for any input!!!

[puddinck]

I did add some photos to the gallery (Pan 032221 and Pan 032221 II). I can't quite remember how to add them here but will give it a try...

[puddinck]

[puddinck]

[Bogertophis]

Update! It's been almost two years since I started this thread and I am back to ask for more advice...

My poor corn snake has been dieting this entire time and has lost considerable (?) weight going from almost 1300 grams down to 1053 grams.

I fed a small adult mouse every two weeks for the first year and then switched to a medium adult mouse every two weeks for the second year. I provided as much opportunity for exercise as time allowed and painfully ignored all hungry behaviors...

It is once again time to place my annual Layne Labs order and would I would really like to reward my long suffering snake with a decent meal or two. Is it too soon to bump up to large adult mice? Or maybe alternate large and medium adult mice?

I realize that my snake is still considered "heavy" for it's size (4.3') but it's spinal ridge is becoming fairly prominent which bothers me. I am also concerned that continuing such restrictive rations will end up causing more issues than the obesity itself?

Thanks in advance for any input!!!

Wow, good job on the "snake diet"! He looks fine by the way...he's NOT supposed to be built like a ball python.

BUT don't blow it now by buying large adult mice! NO, none. Your beautiful corn snake looks just fine. Remind me, what's his age now? I would just feed medium adult mice every 10-12 days- that is the normal feeding schedule for adult corn snakes, except for those that are senior citizens- their meals can be spaced further apart (@ 2 weeks). You might try feeding every 12 days & see what that does to his "weight" before you go to every 10 days.

Again,

Remember that in the wild, snakes are eating rodents (& other prey) that are FAR leaner than domestic rodents are.

[puddinck]

Really appreciate the advice as I really wanted to pull the trigger on at least SOME large mice for Pan!

It will be an adjustment for me to increase feeding frequency since I feed my Ball every Monday and my Corn every other Monday but I will do what's best for them. I guess I could set up reminders on my phone...

I have no idea what sex or how old this snake is as it was a total rescue from a friend of a friend. I have probably had this snake for eight years but would have to search for my oldest photos to be sure. I always feel a little guilty because I don't love it as much as my Ball. Definitely not a snake species or coloration I would have chosen for myself... So hard to wrangle (so good in reverse!) and takes a perverse pleasure in soiling it's enclosure as soon as I clean it!

I seem to be in the minority though as most people I show it to love the coloration!

[Bogertophis]

Really appreciate the advice as I really wanted to pull the trigger on at least SOME large mice for Pan!

It will be an adjustment for me to increase feeding frequency since I feed my Ball every Monday and my Corn every other Monday but I will do what's best for them. I guess I could set up reminders on my phone...

I have no idea what sex or how old this snake is as it was a total rescue from a friend of a friend. I have probably had this snake for eight years but would have to search for my oldest photos to be sure. I always feel a little guilty because I don't love it as much as my Ball. Definitely not a snake species or coloration I would have chosen for myself... So hard to wrangle (so good in reverse!) and takes a perverse pleasure in soiling it's enclosure as soon as I clean it!

I seem to be in the minority though as most people I show it to love the coloration!

It's up to you on the feeding...it's flexible, just as snakes have to be in the wild, & it never hurts to have a couple variations in mind. But just know that "large mice" are basically old breeders*, which are high fat content, thus not so healthy for snakes, whose natural diets are lean wild mice- not well-fed domestics. Fatty meals are also harder for snakes to digest. (*I know this because it's not at all cost-effective to raise mice that aren't breeding just to get to this large size to sell. I'm just letting you know this, as I've been a mouse-breeder for literally decades. If they raised mice to this size without breeding them, they'd have to charge a lot more for them, but as it is, large/jumbo mice are the bi-product of breeding mice- they're retired breeders, the ones whose productivity has diminished.)

As far as soiling the enclosure as soon as you clean, that's because the activity you've stirred up also stirred up his urge to go. If you want to avoid this, try handling him a day or hours BEFORE you plan to clean.

[puddinck]

It's up to you on the feeding...it's flexible, just as snakes have to be in the wild, & it never hurts to have a couple variations in mind. But just know that "large mice" are basically old breeders*, which are high fat content, thus not so healthy for snakes, whose natural diets are lean wild mice- not well-fed domestics. Fatty meals are also harder for snakes to digest. (*I know this because it's not at all cost-effective to raise mice that aren't breeding just to get to this large size to sell. I'm just letting you know this, as I've been a mouse-breeder for literally decades. If they raised mice to this size without breeding them, they'd have to charge a lot more for them, but as it is, large/jumbo mice are the bi-product of breeding mice- they're retired breeders, the ones whose productivity has diminished.)

As far as soiling the enclosure as soon as you clean, that's because the activity you've stirred up also stirred up his urge to go. If you want to avoid this, try handling him a day or hours BEFORE you plan to clean.

I didn't mean to sound argumentative... I totally agree with your recommendations and the logic behind them. I fully intend to purchase medium mice this go-around and slowly increase feeding frequency versus prey size.

My response was more of a complaint than a refusal! Food is love and I hate that Pan's diet must continue... The feeding schedule changes aren't the end of the world for me I am just a very regimented creature of habit. Flexibility is a virtue (or should be??)

My experience with reptiles is long but limited in scope. I have never raised my own feeders (not even crickets!). I have never bred or sold any reptiles. I have never kept large numbers at a time. I have never visited or participated in any expos. Etc, etc, etc... I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't open to suggestions from those more knowledgeable than myself. It's my inexperience with colubrids that caused this situation in the first place!

I am so thankful that this resource is available to me.

As far as soiling the cage goes though... I used to feed Pan in a large bucket and then soak him(?) in warm water until he went. That worked for years! Kept cage clean, kept him clean, kept him hydrated, kept me happy. Then he started taking longer to go (start of diet maybe?) and I worried about keeping the water warm enough. So I started letting him roam around my room after feeding instead (always looking for more food!) but then it is an unpleasant Easter egg hunt later. Now I just feed him in the cage and wait to clean until after he goes. However he will often go again as soon as I'm through! Timing doesn't seem to matter.