How to Resolve Persistent Obesity

[puddinck]

Just had to log in again... Will try and send message to moderators when have a minute. Thanks!

[puddinck]

Thanks again for advice! I was able to cancel the first order and I am placing another. A year's worth of SMALL adult mice for the corn and jumbos for the python. I'm sure the corn snake will appreciate the increase in feeding frequency even if much smaller meals. I know I will feel better! I hated the three week fasting...

I realize that many people feed rats to their ball pythons but mine definitely prefers mice. Despite her age she isn't a large animal and I think she does well on one jumbo a week. As my last thread mentioned she has lately had issues finding her prey and I would hate to switch things up on her now. Unless the jumbo (fatty!) mice are an issue for her liver?

[Bogertophis]

Actually, 'fatty liver disease' really is a thing in snakes of all kinds. Glad you got small adult mice for the corn, that should really help, though visible results will
likely take a long time. I can understand not wanting to change a BP to rats when they clearly like mice, & keep in mind that young rodents of either rat OR
mouse persuasion have a higher percentage of body fat than the adults of average build. Older breeders of either one are best avoided as a steady diet.

[puddinck]

So if younger rodents have a higher percentage of fat and older breeders are also fatty does that only leave small to large adults as a suitable prey item? I never used to have the luxury of choosing size. For years I fed live mice and at our local pet shop you were lucky to get what you got. I have paid $2.75 for a mouse that looked more like a hopper... Maybe that was actually better since my snakes were assured a random-sized prey item. I switched to frozen a few years ago when the pet store's supply became even more sporadic.

I am sure it is too late to cancel my second order with Layne Labs but maybe next year I can try the large versus the jumbo (if my poor old ball is still with me!) If it is really an issue then perhaps I can intersperse my frozen jumbos with live whatevers from the pet store.

[puddinck]

Bogertophis,

I found a couple old pics of my Northern Pacific. I know I have more somewhere and will keep looking... He ended up being quite a large specimen! My family gave me an ultimatum after 12 years and I had to give him up to a rescue. Broke my heart! I continued to pay for his upkeep until his death four years later. He was so large and so tame that they often used him for outreach. Necropsy showed liver disease and I always felt that the change from country living to city living did him in, especially the water...

[Bogertophis]

So if younger rodents have a higher percentage of fat and older breeders are also fatty does that only leave small to large adults as a suitable prey item? I never used to have the luxury of choosing size. For years I fed live mice and at our local pet shop you were lucky to get what you got. I have paid $2.75 for a mouse that looked more like a hopper... Maybe that was actually better since my snakes were assured a random-sized prey item. I switched to frozen a few years ago when the pet store's supply became even more sporadic.

I am sure it is too late to cancel my second order with Layne Labs but maybe next year I can try the large versus the jumbo (if my poor old ball is still with me!) If it is really an issue then perhaps I can intersperse my frozen jumbos with live whatevers from the pet store.

The way to look at feeders is that you want the most mature rodent of the appropriate size for the snake's body (& mouth). (most snakes you just get prey that is no
bigger than the mid-body before feeding, but if you have uncommonly kept snakes like longnose or glossy snakes, their narrow gape makes it impossible to feed them
enough with just one rodent, so for example, my longnose snake eats about 5 fuzzies per meal. (his wild diet is actually lizards or small snakes) But he's an exception,
and he's currently 17 years old, so the fuzzies have apparently "agreed" with him.

Whatever you do, don't give live prey to a snake that's used to eating f/t, as they tend to be less-prepared for 'battle' & can get injured. But as long as you kill them
first (which is maybe what you meant?), it's fine to mix up sizes...I was going to suggest alternating adult mice with the jumbos you ordered, to lower his fat intake.

I know how frustrating it is to get the right size snake food from local stores, from when I first got into snake-keeping. Very quickly I started breeding my own & have
ever since. More work but reliable food supply that I know has been fed properly. But there's the smells, & for just a couple snakes, it's not practical nor a $ savings.

[Bogertophis]

Bogertophis,

I found a couple old pics of my Northern Pacific. I know I have more somewhere and will keep looking... He ended up being quite a large specimen! My family gave me an ultimatum after 12 years and I had to give him up to a rescue. Broke my heart! I continued to pay for his upkeep until his death four years later. He was so large and so tame that they often used him for outreach. Necropsy showed liver disease and I always felt that the change from country living to city living did him in, especially the water...

You should put this beautiful guy in his own thread (in the venomous forum). My fave was a big Southern Pacific (Crotalus viridis helleri), very similar to yours, &
smart. I'm SO sorry you had to give him up, especially after 12 years. It's stressful for snakes to be re-homed. My So. Pac. was given to me as a big adult, unknown
age (maybe 8+? since they don't grow as fast in the wild; he was w/c & pre-owned by a guy that lost interest after 2 years). He was my cherished pet for 17 years
before he passed away, at roughly* 25 years of age. (*best guess) He was never ill, but slowed down noticably in the last year before he passed...I didn't have a
necropsy done. Thanks for sharing your pics, I don't even have any digital pics to share... sorry.

[puddinck]

If I find more pics maybe I will start a thread in the proper place. I didn't have any digital either I just used my cell to take a photo of a photo. I know I have some of him full grown somewhere... He was slightly over 4' when I gave him up and likely grew more at the reptile rescue.

He was wild caught by my then boyfriend when just a neonate.
A bunch of fence lizards were upset by something and caught Chris's eye. He went to investigate and found the young rattlesnake. I don't really know why he captured it but probably to please me. We found out later (after it defecated) that it had been eating the lizards. In fact I had to cut off the whiskers of the first few mice I offered because the snake would cringe and recoil when it brushed against them. I wasn't about to sacrifice any lizards! Didn't take long to adjust though, whiskers and all.

I always had a sense of guilt over taking him but we were always seeing them run over on the road or hearing about people killing them "just because". He seemed really content in captivity. No nose rubbing and very little restlessness. I still miss his beautiful head. So wicked!

[puddinck]

If I find more pics maybe I will start a thread in the proper place. I didn't have any digital either I just used my cell to take a photo of a photo. I know I have some of him full grown somewhere... He was slightly over 4' when I gave him up and likely grew more at the reptile rescue.

He was wild caught by my then boyfriend when just a neonate.
A bunch of fence lizards were upset by something and caught Chris's eye. He went to investigate and found the young rattlesnake. I don't really know why he captured it but probably to please me. We found out later (after it defecated) that it had been eating the lizards. In fact I had to cut off the whiskers of the first few mice I offered because the snake would cringe and recoil when it brushed against them. I wasn't about to sacrifice any lizards! Didn't take long to adjust though, whiskers and all.

I always had a sense of guilt over taking him but we were always seeing them run over on the road or hearing about people killing them "just because". He seemed really content in captivity. No nose rubbing and very little restlessness. I still miss his beautiful head. So wicked!

[Bogertophis]

That's so funny, I can just picture him getting the creepy-crawlies* from mouse whiskers. I never had any rattlesnakes require clean-shaven rodents from me.
*That would have made a great Gary Larsen cartoon- reminds me of the one he did of a bunch of rattlesnakes crowded into an underground cave & one says
"What was THAT? Something just touched me!" (-getting all creeped-out, lol). FYI, G.L. was also a snake-keeper...he got his insights first hand.

I rescued/re-located rattlesnakes for 20 years in So. Cal.- I kept some that were un-releaseable for whatever reasons (too long in captivity by others, mostly) and
did conservation talks with them (as well as w/ my harmless snakes). I miss them rattle-brats...& there's some here too, but I don't go out to catch & keep. I got
to play "road-guard" once for a huge timber rattlesnake...just moseying across the road. Beautiful.

BTW, I agree with your observation...in all the rattlesnakes I've known** I've never seen one rubbing their face/pushing on the screen tops to get out. I think
they're careful not to damage their faces. (**I lived in the desert, where snakes simply re-located without food & water first are unlikely to survive, so they first
spent some time at my "B & B".)