Bothersome thoughts after first expo experience

[FollowTheSun]

Hello, I'm new here and new to BP's. I just got my first one a couple of weeks ago (previously owned) and my daughter has a full grown one. Daughter and I went to a very large expo to see what there was to see.

First though was, Oh cool! Look at all the thousands of snakes and other reptiles! Look at all the interesting morphs!

Second thought was, they don't look very happy in those tiny plastic food containers. While some were clearly healthy and literally shedding in the containers, and had some bedding, others were sad-looking and scared. Some were locked in plastic clear display boxes with no bedding, clearly freaked out. One pair of adult ratsnakes for sale were stuffed into round plastic containers with no room to spare at all. This is fine for temporary display, but I can imagine that most of the dealers would not have larger enclosures available for the snakes to "stretch their legs" after the day is done.

Third thought was there are a LOT of baby snakes, I wonder if they all get sold? What happens to the ones that don't get sold? It seems that in general you see more baby/young snakes in the pet owner population than adult and older snakes. Are they culled at some point? Is there a high rate of death of the babies?

[distaff]

I've never been to one. I can imagine the same mixed feelings, esp. the expo's like Tinley which seem to vendors for "everything under the sun." I would LOVE to see all those animals in person, but I'd also worry about bringing home mites, and diseases my birds could catch. I also worry about the quality of the homes those animals are going to end up in. I have a dim view of most of humanity. Even most well-meaning people are generally clueless.

Bird fairs are VERY frowned on by parrot keepers, again both for bio-security, and the stress on the animals. I can't say I usually know what my snakes are thinking, but the birds are better communicators - I hate to see animals visibly upset.

[WhompingWillow]

I'm sure more experienced keepers and breeders will chime in, but here are my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Just like there are good and not-so-good breeders (of any animal, not just snakes), some expos are better than others. I've been to several shows within a 2-3 hour drive of where I live, and I've been impressed with a couple and disappointed in most. But I have found some breeders I'd be willing to buy from and others I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

Bottom line is that shows are a great way to see a variety of animals and to network. Snakes are in smaller containers and cases because they really don't need much room while on display. Bedding also isn't required. Ball pythons in general feel more comfortable in cramped quarters. You usually don't hear about anyone keeping an adult, even female, in anything larger than a 4x2.

My assumption is that any breeder who is even halfway decent has an appropriate rack system back in their breeding area. Snakes aren't kept in deli cups and display cases long term.

And I think younger snakes are usually offered for a couple of reasons. First, the average "pet" buyer wants to start with something small. Younger snakes are also the product, so it's what you need to clear, inventory-wise. Adult snakes are larger and therefore can be more valuable, especially to a breeder. They also take up more space on the table.

But I get where you're coming from with the squicky feeling some shows give, especially if the majority of animals don't look like they're in decent condition. That's when it comes down to research, lots and lots of it, and asking questions. And hand sanitizer.

[Bogertophis]

... Snakes aren't kept in deli cups and display cases long term....

Can we get that carved in stone, please? The better vendors don't do that, but I'm not sure that's true of them all...I've been to some expos in California a while back,
& felt so sorry for many of the neonates & hatchlings stuck in brightly-lit deli-cups for hours & days. The expo I attended was a 2-day thing, & many of the vendors were
not local, nor can anyone pack up that many snakes quickly, so you have to figure prep time, travel time, and then the possibility that they also go to several subsequent
expos with these animals. It's no wonder that newly-bought snakes are very stressed, may not feed & may become ill after all the exposure to strange conditions & temperature fluctuations, not to mention mites & germs that can transfer during handling at the show.

Expos give me just about the same feeling as when I go through a shelter for dogs....I want to take them all home & protect them. And the fact that I can't makes me .
I too wonder about the over-production for commercial sales...about all the plainer ones, the "normals" that aren't sold & never achieve pet status. That's why I'm not a
breeder of snakes.

Just going from memory, snake/reptile expos are to me like a cross between a candy store & a bad accident that you can't look away from.
Both tempting & troubling...

[Dianne]

The abundance of hatchlings/neonates, especially normal phase or common morphs is why you see so many folks on this site (and others) stressing to new keepers to slow down on breeding dreams. For the small time breeder especially, you can have the animals for an extended period of time. You have to be willing to keep, heat, feed, clean, etc. if the snakes don’t sell. And as Bogertophis and Whomping Wiilow both said, there are good and bad vendors.

I enjoy the local shows, but there isn’t near the variety of species as there once were in this area thanks to the morph craze. It’s mostly BP’s with some corns and hognose, and a few other species thrown in from time to time. I also used to breed and sell some of my snakes (Bci, corns, and Cuban boas once). I was picky about who I sold to or traded with. My first priority was the animals. I can only hope I read my buyers right and my babies are still happy and healthy all these years later, but you just never know.

[pbenner]

I always look at it this way; There are two types of breeders in this game, those that are in it for the money, and those that are in it for the animals. A Reptile Expo generally allows you to see both types.

Now, this is not to say that a poor show display or containment means that the breeder doesn't care. That stuff is expensive to acquire, but most of these animals go into those containers for the weekend and don't come back out until they get "home". Be that a new home, or back to their rack tubs.

I always buy from someone that has happy, healthy animals, and I try to buy from the smaller guys over the bigger ones.

Hopefully you found some nice animals.

Best,

Paul

[FollowTheSun]

Ahhh . . . I used to have a couple of parrots and I went to a bird expo once, and had the same feelings. I really try to buy rescue/used animals. I went there to get a good deal on some bird accessories, but it was sad to see terrified parrots being stuffed into small carry cages without much screening to what kind of home they were going to.

(My two former parrots were ill-behaved rescues who turned into wonderful companions. I had to give them up when I left a bad situation, but I placed them in the care of a parrot rescue organization along with a donation-- both were placed in great homes and I was in contact with the owners for about a year after the adoptions to answer questions they had.)

[FollowTheSun]

The abundance of hatchlings/neonates, especially normal phase or common morphs is why you see so many folks on this site (and others) stressing to new keepers to slow down on breeding dreams. For the small time breeder especially, you can have the animals for an extended period of time. You have to be willing to keep, heat, feed, clean, etc. if the snakes don’t sell. And as Bogertophis and Whomping Wiilow both said, there are good and bad vendors.

I enjoy the local shows, but there isn’t near the variety of species as there once were in this area thanks to the morph craze. It’s mostly BP’s with some corns and hognose, and a few other species thrown in from time to time. I also used to breed and sell some of my snakes (Bci, corns, and Cuban boas once). I was picky about who I sold to or traded with. My first priority was the animals. I can only hope I read my buyers right and my babies are still happy and healthy all these years later, but you just never know.

I am new here and don't want to come to quick judgements, but when I see people breeding lots of snakes I do wonder what happens to the normals, or any of them for that matter. My daughter said it reminds her of that old game DragonVale where you can cross different dragons, and you get a lot of normals and one very special one-- but you still have to house and feed the normals. Good lessons in that game. :-)

I mean, snakes can live 20+ years. That's a lot of mouths to feed, and a lot of rats to provide.

[FollowTheSun]

I always look at it this way; There are two types of breeders in this game, those that are in it for the money, and those that are in it for the animals. A Reptile Expo generally allows you to see both types.

Now, this is not to say that a poor show display or containment means that the breeder doesn't care. That stuff is expensive to acquire, but most of these animals go into those containers for the weekend and don't come back out until they get "home". Be that a new home, or back to their rack tubs.

I always buy from someone that has happy, healthy animals, and I try to buy from the smaller guys over the bigger ones.

Hopefully you found some nice animals.

Best,

Paul

I did see a couple of guys who really loved it and were enthusiastic about telling me the stories about the individual snakes. They even had some of the parents of the babies on display. I also noticed their display cases were much better quality and the snakes could be comfortable in them for some time.

Then there was the company that must have had over a thousand animals in deli cups. Seriously, stacks and stacks of them around a U-shaped table display, with several employees exchanging money for animals, and none of them knew about the individual animals. There was one side that was just lizards, a table covered with deli cups stacked about 4 high and all the lizards were hanging upside down by the air holes.

And then there was the neat display of rattlesnakes by a rescue/education group. They all looked healthy.

We have enough pets, so did not buy any critters. Except my daughter bought some live plants for her chameleon habitat, and some wormy treats for it. I am not sure if I will be so eager to go back to an expo anytime soon.

[FollowTheSun]

Oh, I should add that my new BP was bought from craigslist, along with a bunch of great accessories (Exoterra cage, two heat regulators, heat pad, branches, hides, basking light, etc-- even a dozen frozen rats) and the snake himself (banana pastel) for $300. I asked the owner where she got him and she said she got him at this same expo last year! Ironic! I have a very nice snake here and I'm glad I didn't buy him from one of those mega-dealers.