The controversial enclosure is finished

[dadofsix]

I know that you are proud of your enclosure and that your snake is climbing up the branch in it. This, however, does not establish the fact that royal pythons are, indeed, natural climbers. I'm also curious as to how you plan to provide your snake with hides on those ledges.

Look, if it works for you, and your snake lives a long and contented life in this enclosure, more power to you. It proves nothing other than that your snake may just be the exception that proves the rule.

The ultimate question, however, is not what is best for you. The ultimate question is what is good for your snake and, by extension, what is good for royal pythons in general. That's why people come to this site -- to learn, to grow, and to raise healthy snakes. We may differ on the particulars but, ultimately, I believe that we all agree on the result -- raising healthy snakes.

<><Peace

[Dutti]

I know that you are proud of your enclosure and that your snake is climbing up the branch in it. This, however, does not establish the fact that royal pythons are, indeed, natural climbers. I'm also curious as to how you plan to provide your snake with hides on those ledges.

Look, if it works for you, and your snake lives a long and contented life in this enclosure, more power to you. It proves nothing other than that your snake may just be the exception that proves the rule.

The ultimate question, however, is not what is best for you. The ultimate question is what is good for your snake and, by extension, what is good for royal pythons in general. That's why people come to this site -- to learn, to grow, and to raise healthy snakes. We may differ on the particulars but, ultimately, I believe that we all agree on the result -- raising healthy snakes.

<><Peace

On each side board there is one plant, one is real and one artificial. They provide a natural hide. I could provide additional classical hides, but the snake must not feel the same all over the enclosure. As long as those plants provide a natural hide its ok

[dadofsix]

I would respectfully ask you to consider that what YOU feel is an appropriate hide is not necessarily the same as what your royal python feels is an appropriate hide. And how will your snake regulate its temperature if all of the hides are on the same side of the enclosure?

<><Peace

[Dutti]

I would respectfully ask you to consider that what YOU feel is an appropriate hide is not necessarily the same as what your royal python feels is an appropriate hide. And how will your snake regulate its temperature if all of the hides are on the same side of the enclosure?

<><Peace

I use only belly heat. If you look at the photo you will see tiles on the floor. That is the warm side. When he needs warmth he just goes and sit there. When he does not need warmth, he goes inside his hide or on the side boards. I know that many people provide two hides, one on the cool side and one on the warm side. It,s correct but my enclosure is located on a high place, So when he is on the tiles (the hot side) without a hide, there is no eye contact with him.

[Regius_049]

I am kind of confused why you keep posting here about this enclosure. You are getting the same advice an responses, and with good reason. For those, who don't want to read through the other thread, I'll provide a TLDR:

As you note, there is evidence that ball pythons do indeed climb a limited amount in a wild setting. Ball pythons have been found in low-lying branches and foliage, but it is not their predominant trait.

To put this in perspective for you and to be complete, even if it were a very arboreal snake like a green tree python or jungle carpet python, 2' in length / width would still be insufficient. I know some people keep them in that, but they really should be in something at least 3' x 2' (L x W) x 2-3' high. Greg Maxwell himself suggests 3' x 2' x 2' caging for green tree pythons and notes 4' long is even better. Most experienced keepers note that additional height is indeed beneficial to these snakes, but floor space is even more so.

To be fair, your enclosure is 23.6" x 31.5" (per your measurements with the "addition") and a 40 gallon breeder is 36" x 18" typically. Thus, your cage has ~744 sq. inches of floor space while the 40 gallon breeder has 648 sq. inches of floor space, so you could argue you are winning out there. Additionally for comparison, an IRIS CB-70 (37 qt tub) is 33.5" x 17.8" or 596 sq. inches of floor space. I have to admit that really, if people are going to critique this guy's enclosure, then we should be critiquing breeders/keepers with snakes in CB-70 (or equivalent) tubs as well. I realize this is perhaps outside the scope of this particular discussion, but I have noticed, in general, people tend to be pretty OK with keeping adult ball pythons in tubs.

1. This enclosure is no less appropriate than a smaller tub, unless the core complaint is that the snake will fall an injure itself. However, really it is no different than a snake climbing a short bush in the wild, but still I can see the merit in that argument. If someone is going to say your enclosure is not appropriate from size perspective, then smaller tubs are thus also not appropriate (per above).

2. Your enclosure is however not optimal, and there is no reason not to tilt the cage on its side, aside from the fact it would be a pain to change the front doors. It would be better in every respect for the snake and there is no reason I can see to keep saying your approach is better. No expert, biologist, or keeper would agree your setup is ideal. Even for true arboreal snakes. which a ball python is not, it would be better to tilt it on its side. I've discussed this previously in regards to thermal gradients and how they affect snake thermoregulation and behavior.

3. Can you tell me, logically, why your enclosure configuration is optimal? I understand that when people are told they are wrong, they tend to dig in and hold their ground, because people don't like to be wrong. I get that. However, it is OK to be wrong, it happens to all of us.

4. What are you hoping to gain from your post? Do you want advice on a ledge? Do you want feedback on furniture placement?

[Dutti]

I am kind of confused why you keep posting here about this enclosure. You are getting the same advice an responses, and with good reason. For those, who don't want to read through the other thread, I'll provide a TLDR:



1. This enclosure is no less appropriate than a smaller tub, unless the core complaint is that the snake will fall an injure itself. However, really it is no different than a snake climbing a short bush in the wild, but still I can see the merit in that argument. If someone is going to say your enclosure is not appropriate from size perspective, then smaller tubs are thus also not appropriate (per above).

2. Your enclosure is however not optimal, and there is no reason not to tilt the cage on its side, aside from the fact it would be a pain to change the front doors. It would be better in every respect for the snake and there is no reason I can see to keep saying your approach is better. No expert, biologist, or keeper would agree your setup is ideal. Even for true arboreal snakes. which a ball python is not, it would be better to tilt it on its side. I've discussed this previously in regards to thermal gradients and how they affect snake thermoregulation and behavior.

3. Can you tell me, logically, why your enclosure configuration is optimal? I understand that when people are told they are wrong, they tend to dig in and hold their ground, because people don't like to be wrong. I get that. However, it is OK to be wrong, it happens to all of us.

4. What are you hoping to gain from your post? Do you want advice on a ledge? Do you want feedback on furniture placement?

I have never claimed that my enclosure is ideal or optimal. But when i posted about it for the first time i got attacked by several members for the space reason which i found to be not logical for the reasons you explaind in point one. And i,m not hoping to gain any information from my post. I was just sharing things with others. I say loud and clear, i built my enclosure like this because i had more height than floor space to offer. If i had more floor space i would have done it differently. But also its not a bad enclosure for the reasons you explained in point one. I would say its an acceptable exceptional set up for a male BP but not to be recommended as a normal set up for ball pythons

[wolfy-hound]

Providing heat only in an exposed spot in the cage is a very poor set up. Period. Regardless of the nonsense about arboreal ball pythons because you saw a picture of a snake in a tree, the fact is that the typical advice for a Proper set up includes identical HIDES on both warm and cool sides.

An artificial plant is not a ball python hide.

Having only an exposed warm spot with all hides in cool spots means your snake only has the option of being on the cool side if he feels stressed. Therefor he will end up stressed and cool when he needs heat.

Your snake already fell. Just because he decided to climb more does not mean that it's a great set up and harmless. It means he hasn't got the options that he needs... i.e. real hides in both warm and cool sides.

This is my advice, feel free to ignore it. At least other beginners will see some actual information instead of false made up stuff.

[AmericanTacos]

If you had to choose to remain in either an armchair or a bed the rest of your life, I'm pretty sure you would choose the bed. In an armchair, you have one option: Vertical. You can sit upright, you can sit upside down, or maybe you can even curl up in the seat part into a little ball. That's great and all, but if you had a bed, you could choose between a Vertical position OR a Horizontal position. In addition to sitting and curling up, you could also stretch yourself out any which way you wanted to. Plus, you would have much more room to move around. Don't like the left side of the bed (which is too hot once you've been sitting there a while)? Easy! Move to the left side and cool off.

For BP's, I believe the cage you have is an armchair, while a "typical" (proper) cage is a bed. In your cage, the snake can climb as much as it wants - but it's probably a bit like standing in a chair. If you don't want to lay down, you can sit up as straight as you want. But if you want a different position than those, your only option is to stand. Why would you stand? You're already up, you don't have to go up more. You don't even really WANT to go up more, but that's the only way you'd be able to stretch your body.

Not very comfortable to think about is it?

In a bed, you can sit up, and that's as high as you really want to go since you know you could just stretch yourself out horizontally. A Horizontal BP cage (with a branch) is important because a Ball Python has WHATEVER options it wants in terms of making itself comfortable - so it doesn't have to stand on the armchair.


Also, in response to the hides, whoever posted something along the lines of "a hide should not be what YOU feel is good, it should be what your snake feels is a good hide". That's completely right.

If you wake up naked with no clothes in sight, and someone says "hey, you have to go out onto the street", you wouldn't exactly want to, would you? You would feel EXPOSED. Giving plants to the snake in place of a solid array of hide choices is a bit like then being told "but don't worry, I have something for you to wear". Then they proceed to hand you two or three pieces of paper and some tape to fashion yourself clothes out of. They're better, but you would rather have clothes.


I don't care that snakes sometimes like to climb, or that they are SEMI-arboreal. We like to run, but we don't live on treadmills.

[Dutti]

Providing heat only in an exposed spot in the cage is a very poor set up. Period. Regardless of the nonsense about arboreal ball pythons because you saw a picture of a snake in a tree, the fact is that the typical advice for a Proper set up includes identical HIDES on both warm and cool sides.

An artificial plant is not a ball python hide.

Having only an exposed warm spot with all hides in cool spots means your snake only has the option of being on the cool side if he feels stressed. Therefor he will end up stressed and cool when he needs heat.

Your snake already fell. Just because he decided to climb more does not mean that it's a great set up and harmless. It means he hasn't got the options that he needs... i.e. real hides in both warm and cool sides.

This is my advice, feel free to ignore it. At least other beginners will see some actual information instead of false made up stuff.

Yes you are right. I know that. I am watching him now to see how often does he go to the warm side without a hide. I have a hide for the warm side ready for him, i will give it to him

[DandD]

Dutti this is absolutely no lie. Me and some friends were walking home from school one day when we heard a horrendous crashing in a tree. That horrendous crashing was a groundhog falling from about thirty feet up. Now any zoo or any farm boy knows groundhogs live in holes in a field not in nests in a tree.Your exact logic would mean if I had a pet groundhog I would need to make a nest in a tree because I saw it once. I’m sure I’m feeding the troll with this but let’s be honest, That was the whole point of this post and every post I’ve seen you on