New ball python over a year old and only 166 grams!

[cchardwick]

I'd also like to say that the seller was completely honest and upfront about the whole transaction, no deception at all. I'm happy with my purchase and received two beautiful snakes that are amazing. I was just shocked and surprised that he didn't feed them very much, that was totally unexpected. I just assumed that a big breeder like that would feed better and assumed the weights were just not updated. He was not trying to hide anything, these were his exact words, "we maintenance feed our hatchlings and feed them smaller meals over a longer period of time". Doesn't sound like a problem feeder to me, sounds like they just don't feed them very much.

[zina10]

Another point I've been pondering.

We all agree, that without the "larger scale" breeders (and not talking of the puppymills for snakes here, just bigger then hobby breeders) we wouldn't have the availability of quality Ball Pythons and the affordability of many morphs. That is just a fact.

Unless one successfully runs such a larger breeding facility, the day to day challenges might not become clear until one grows to that size.

You have often said that you are rapidly expanding your collection of late, adding lots of animals to really take off as a larger scale breeder. Lets just say that you will have 35 breed-able females (all that just an example). Lets say they each lay a clutch of 7 eggs. You will have some with more eggs, some with less, some with none. But lets just say 7 eggs times 35.

You will have 245 hatchlings. Feeding them really is no problem once you breed your own rodents.

Lets say you feed them strongly, because you believe it raises their value and you like to feed them well. They grow rapidly, like strongly fed Ball Pythons do. While you are trying to sell them, you will have to quickly move them into Juvie tubs at the minimum. And they do not sell THAT fast. Many breeders have their hatchlings for a year OR MORE while promoting them.

Lets say despite aggressively promoting, selling (shows and online) you, like so many others, will still have quite a few left at a year old. Even if only lets say...100 of them. Remember, you are "new" and it takes a while for people to trust a "new" breeder with a un-known reputation. Selling is not as easy at all. Unless you start dumping them or their prices, which will cut into your profit and doesn't do a reputation well, either. So 100 of them will quickly need to go into adult tubs at the rate you fed them.

Do you have the space to house not only your adults, the hatchling racks but also adult racks for AT LEAST 100+ (most likely more) adult sized tubs for quickly grown juvies that reached 1000 gr before you could sell them? Plus some "juvie" racks...

Breeding animals at that level is going to be different then doing it as a hobby. That is why I rather not go into it full blown. But I have all the respect for people that DO do it, because it is thanks to them we have the availability and there are far less imports.

I do understand that there are challenges at that level, though. In order to do this "right" there is a LOT of time and investment, and I doubt the profit is as high as many that go into this think. At least not until they build up a reputation and a gorgeous collection of carefully picked out or home grown animals.

All it takes is bringing in one animal from a questionable source and not quarantine correctly. And an entire collection can be destroyed..

If a breeder (and I'm not talking about that breeder alone) has consistently and for many years produced and sold healthy and quality animals and has a slew of happy customers plus no drama/deception/lies and scams, then maintenance fed animals are nothing I worry about. Esp. with so many bad breeders around. Maintenance feeding is most likely far more "natural" to the snake, then the way we feed them once we bring them home, esp. the ones that get rushed along to get them up to breeding size.

Again, 166 gr. IS low, though. I don't think its typical for that breeder for them to be "that" low. At least not in my experience nor have I heard that complaint. That does not mean that Chris shouldn't have been concerned or disappointed in that fact. I'm not trying to downplay his right to be concerned. The breeder could have had more of an explanation since I don't feel that is exactly a "normal" weight for a maintenance fed yearling. Could it have been a late in the season '16 ? One that took off late? Again, that could have been explained better.

I'm happy for Chris that the animals appear healthy and beautiful and I'm looking forward to pictures. I'm sure he'll have them up to size in no time

[PitOnTheProwl]

Zina, you are my hero today!!!
Too many people dont want to look at or accept all corners of breeding and your last post shines a great light on what others refuse to contemplate.

[zina10]

Zina, you are my hero today!!!
Too many people dont want to look at or accept all corners of breeding and your last post shines a great light on what others refuse to contemplate.

Aw, thank you

That is because I'm a bit of a "over thinker". At night, when I can't sleep, I go through different scenarios in my head. All the implications of any situations, planning it out, thinking of all the different factors.

Plus I've been there before when starting projects (not animal breeding). Thinking "I can do that". Even going so far as to think "I can do this better". Only to figure out that there are things I haven't factored in and it doesn't quite work out like I've thought. And its a humbling experience. When animals or any living being is involved, it becomes even more critical to think through every little teeny tiny aspect. Rarely is there a "good profit" to be made with animal breeding. Its a fickle business and a lot can go wrong. Many come and go.

The ones that stick it out and make it a success (that incl. quality healthy animals and great business ethics) have my greatest respect.

Maintenance feeding I have no problem with, if everything else checks out and has checked out for many years.

But again, i do understand that Chris was taken aback. 166 gr. is on the small side, even if it was a late 16 hatchling and slow to start. But hopefully it will take off and turn into another prize animal in his collection

[Momokahn]

Well Zina I have had time to think about all of this and once again love your posts. Yes I do agree without the dedication of breeders, we wouldn't have these animals we so dearly care about. My passion for snakes runs very deep and at times maybe to deep.

Thanks again Zina and I you.

[zina10]

My passion for snakes runs very deep and at times maybe to deep.

Thanks again Zina and I you.

No such thing as to deep when it comes to that

[JodanOrNoDan]

Another point I've been pondering.

We all agree, that without the "larger scale" breeders (and not talking of the puppymills for snakes here, just bigger then hobby breeders) we wouldn't have the availability of quality Ball Pythons and the affordability of many morphs. That is just a fact.

Unless one successfully runs such a larger breeding facility, the day to day challenges might not become clear until one grows to that size.

You have often said that you are rapidly expanding your collection of late, adding lots of animals to really take off as a larger scale breeder. Lets just say that you will have 35 breed-able females (all that just an example). Lets say they each lay a clutch of 7 eggs. You will have some with more eggs, some with less, some with none. But lets just say 7 eggs times 35.

You will have 245 hatchlings. Feeding them really is no problem once you breed your own rodents.

Lets say you feed them strongly, because you believe it raises their value and you like to feed them well. They grow rapidly, like strongly fed Ball Pythons do. While you are trying to sell them, you will have to quickly move them into Juvie tubs at the minimum. And they do not sell THAT fast. Many breeders have their hatchlings for a year OR MORE while promoting them.

Lets say despite aggressively promoting, selling (shows and online) you, like so many others, will still have quite a few left at a year old. Even if only lets say...100 of them. Remember, you are "new" and it takes a while for people to trust a "new" breeder with a un-known reputation. Selling is not as easy at all. Unless you start dumping them or their prices, which will cut into your profit and doesn't do a reputation well, either. So 100 of them will quickly need to go into adult tubs at the rate you fed them.

Do you have the space to house not only your adults, the hatchling racks but also adult racks for AT LEAST 100+ (most likely more) adult sized tubs for quickly grown juvies that reached 1000 gr before you could sell them? Plus some "juvie" racks...

Breeding animals at that level is going to be different then doing it as a hobby. That is why I rather not go into it full blown. But I have all the respect for people that DO do it, because it is thanks to them we have the availability and there are far less imports.

I do understand that there are challenges at that level, though. In order to do this "right" there is a LOT of time and investment, and I doubt the profit is as high as many that go into this think. At least not until they build up a reputation and a gorgeous collection of carefully picked out or home grown animals.

All it takes is bringing in one animal from a questionable source and not quarantine correctly. And an entire collection can be destroyed..

If a breeder (and I'm not talking about that breeder alone) has consistently and for many years produced and sold healthy and quality animals and has a slew of happy customers plus no drama/deception/lies and scams, then maintenance fed animals are nothing I worry about. Esp. with so many bad breeders around. Maintenance feeding is most likely far more "natural" to the snake, then the way we feed them once we bring them home, esp. the ones that get rushed along to get them up to breeding size.

Again, 166 gr. IS low, though. I don't think its typical for that breeder for them to be "that" low. At least not in my experience nor have I heard that complaint. That does not mean that Chris shouldn't have been concerned or disappointed in that fact. I'm not trying to downplay his right to be concerned. The breeder could have had more of an explanation since I don't feel that is exactly a "normal" weight for a maintenance fed yearling. Could it have been a late in the season '16 ? One that took off late? Again, that could have been explained better.

I'm happy for Chris that the animals appear healthy and beautiful and I'm looking forward to pictures. I'm sure he'll have them up to size in no time

This is a good summation of what is going on. At the end of the day, it is up to the buyer to decide what they deem appropriate. Feeding babies, even on a smaller scale, can become voodoo. This goes for both over and underfeeding. Overfeeding is known to cause problems in other species. I personally don't have this problem with ball pythons. Mine stop eating when they have had enough. I have yet to have an overweight one but I'm sure it can happen.

I will say this and leave it be I hope...

Underfeeding can cause many issues. At some point the immune system becomes compromised and anything goes at that point. I know this for a fact. When you buy an undersized animal you are taking a risk. A risk that can cost you a lot of money. I for one will only buy and sell healthy animals that are appropriately proportioned for their age. That does not mean they have to be monsters like I produce, it means within a safe average. This goes for adults and babies.

[zina10]

This is a good summation of what is going on. At the end of the day, it is up to the buyer to decide what they deem appropriate. Feeding babies, even on a smaller scale, can become voodoo. This goes for both over and underfeeding. Overfeeding is known to cause problems in other species. I personally don't have this problem with ball pythons. Mine stop eating when they have had enough. I have yet to have an overweight one but I'm sure it can happen.

I will say this and leave it be I hope...

Underfeeding can cause many issues. At some point the immune system becomes compromised and anything goes at that point. I know this for a fact. When you buy an undersized animal you are taking a risk. A risk that can cost you a lot of money. I for one will only buy and sell healthy animals that are appropriately proportioned for their age. That does not mean they have to be monsters like I produce, it means within a safe average. This goes for adults and babies.

I agree.

That said, I believe "in this instance" that THIS size/age is not the norm with the breeder.

And undersize does not necessarily mean purposely starved. Late in year hatchling, slow to get started, prefering a smaller rodent size or simply a smaller hatchling (many eggs) all factors in too.

I have seen small for age hatchlings that looked perfectly healthy and beautiful and grew up without a problem and fast once they got going.

I've seen small for age hatchlings that looked terrible. De-flated, spine very prominent and rough looking.

Either way, the breeder should make sure the buyer is satisfied and offer a better explanation.


Over feeding can cause harm even if not readily apparent (like with Boas that regurge). Animals that have had necropsies done have been found with fatty liver disease, even though they weren't "obese" looking per say. And I have seen some dimply, fat Ball Pythons, that have a depression along the spine, LOL. I think common sense dictates that neither over nor underfeeding is good for any species at all.

But I am fairly certain that the wild animals grow far FAR slower then the ones in our collections, and that this is fairly normal for them, since they are opportunistic feeders (sometimes finding a lot, sometimes no food)

The adults I've had for 7 years were grown SLOW. Some may say "maintenance fed". I did not starve them, but since I had no interest in breeding, I didn't grow them rapidly. Despite that all reached adult size, never sick, still growing. Slow and steady. In one case (Jag) growing HUGE !!!! All were able to breed without problem, too.

Not sure if that is anecdotal, but all have kept their colors VERY nicely into adulthood.

[JodanOrNoDan]

I agree.

That said, I believe "in this instance" that THIS size/age is not the norm with the breeder.

And undersize does not necessarily mean purposely starved. Late in year hatchling, slow to get started, prefering a smaller rodent size or simply a smaller hatchling (many eggs) all factors in too.

I have seen small for age hatchlings that looked perfectly healthy and beautiful and grew up without a problem and fast once they got going.

I've seen small for age hatchlings that looked terrible. De-flated, spine very prominent and rough looking.

Either way, the breeder should make sure the buyer is satisfied and offer a better explanation.


Over feeding can cause harm even if not readily apparent (like with Boas that regurge). Animals that have had necropsies done have been found with fatty liver disease, even though they weren't "obese" looking per say. And I have seen some dimply, fat Ball Pythons, that have a depression along the spine, LOL. I think common sense dictates that neither over nor underfeeding is good for any species at all.

But I am fairly certain that the wild animals grow far FAR slower then the ones in our collections, and that this is fairly normal for them, since they are opportunistic feeders (sometimes finding a lot, sometimes no food)

The adults I've had for 7 years were grown SLOW. Some may say "maintenance fed". I did not starve them, but since I had no interest in breeding, I didn't grow them rapidly. Despite that all reached adult size, never sick, still growing. Slow and steady. In one case (Jag) growing HUGE !!!! All were able to breed without problem, too.

Not sure if that is anecdotal, but all have kept their colors VERY nicely into adulthood.

I am not 100% sure we are all talking about the same breeder(s) and honestly identifying them is not necessary for me. I had a very bad experience with underfed animals and it will never happen again. I just want people to be aware that when they hear maintenance fed they need to take a hard look at where the animal is weight wise. I know normal and not normal for hatchlings at this point and buy and sell accordingly. Many of the things that are discussed on the board I experiment with because I have the resources to expend. I don't discuss them much because many are set in their ways regardless of the facts presented. The experiment I did that is inline with this discussion goes like this. I had two nearly identical brothers from the same clutch. I fed one by the guidelines we all use. With the following modifications...

Snake 1: Fed every a normal sized 5 days meal for the first 2 months. Then backed off to weekly. I think he hit 800 grams by the time he was a year old. He actually bred at 3 months old I think (he's a freak but it is genetic, his father was the same way). He is the father of many of my clutches this year. This guy does not miss meals, not even deep in shed.

Snake 2: Does not miss meals either, but I fed him weekly and only rat pups for almost a full year even though he was more than capable of taking a small. He remained healthy looking but was a little over half the size of his brother. I decided to breed him this year so I started feeding him smalls. He caught up to his brother in about two months.

What I got out of this is that they can be "underfed" and not stunted. I would not want to go below what I did in the experiment though for this line of snakes however. They "want" to be big. The girls from this line are massive even on a "normal" feeding routine. I would guess that genetically smaller animals could get by with even less but there is going too far. I will never make any real money breeding snakes. I cannot underfeed them to the point I am hitting the danger zone. I decided that I wanted to make animals that are good pets. I do not sell stuff that does not eat well. Ball pythons have gotten a bad rap with the eating thing. It doesn't have to be that way. I believe much of the not eating, when not husbandry related, is genetic. Not everything I make is "perfect" eating wise but 90% of my stuff wants to be big and they like to eat. That said my business model is not working. People are just more interested in the latest morph rather than getting something that is easy to deal with, and I understand that. I did it with Gravel. I got beautiful animals but it will take a few generations for me to put the size and attitude I like on them.

As far as overfeeding, when one of my big ones finally kicks the bucket, I will open it up and see about the liver. It is my suspicion that girls that are not breeding are more likely to have this problem if it exists for ball pythons. I have a girl that is 20+ years old, eats like a pig, but doesn't lay. If any of them go from fatty liver it will be her. 20+ years for this animal is doing pretty good though.

BTW by grown slow? how slow? What was the feeding routine? More proven data is always good to have.

[zina10]

Do you mean my schedule ?

What I meant by "grown slow" is simply that I did not rush them to bring them up to size for breeding. Of course I didn't starve them. They got a "appr" sized meal about once the week. Skipping when in shed.

They did not reach breeding size in one year.

The only time I fed them more aggressively was when I decided to breed the females. Which they did without problem.

Appropriate size can mean many things of course.

I went by the girth of snakes bodies and rodents body, to try to match them up, erring on the smaller (rodent) size.

As adults they were fed about every 2 weeks, but by then most were on medium sized rats. Jag of course, will take large rats now, they disappear without a trace, LOL

I think "maintenance fed" can mean different things to different people. I use it as the opposite of power feeding (while definitely NOT underfeeding, either). I have shared a ton of pictures of all my animals, I don't think either looked small/skinny or fat. Jag is huge, but not fat either