Would a male ball python reach 5 feet

[Dutti]

I have yet to see a 10' BCI. The largest boas are BCC and Peruvians to be exact. And to reach those lengths, you are looking at around a 10+ year old snake.

Basically like i said before, you just power fed him to that size in that short of time. Even continued power feeding wont make them reach 10'.

But back to the BP. You say he is shy and doesnt like to be seen but you are denying him a warm side hide...so here we go again with you imposing your power on the snake. All BPs should have a warm and cool hide unless they are in a rack in which case, the rack itself acts like a giant hide.

And you made it small, i forgot the 6 inches so we are looking at a 2x2.6 foot floor. 6 inches isnt going to mean squat on that small of a footprint. Do the snake a favor and flip the cage on its side so he has a 3x2.6x2 cage and make him happy.

And the point to the feeding video? Not really amazing as i have a 7'+ retic who eats 2XL guinea pigs and probably piglets if i let him lol. I still am sticking by my comment of that boa is being power fed or its age is way off. Thats the problem with a lot of people, they are in a hurry to grow their snakes to these huge sizes and then brag about it. You are doing nothing but showing your inexperience and damaging the animal.

Sorry about the rant and sounding like a jerk but your care for your snakes just rubs me the wrong way to no end.

I spend a lot of time on the boa FB pages and i see so many people with very good animals say they feel their animals are underfed or small. Me as well as other people on the boards have to let them know their animals are in perfect shape. The problem isnt their animal, its that 90% of the boas you see nowadays are overweight and overfed/powerfed so it has almost become the norm. I kind of blame it on some breeders to an extent but i also blame the industy. To make the big cash and stay on top of the morph market, breeders have to grow their snakes quick so they can breed quick so they can be the first to reap the highest cash rewards on said morph. Then once the guys who raise their boas correctly reach the breeding of said morph, the power feeding breeders move on to the next up and coming morph and rinse and repeat. They dont care about the long term welfare of the animal, they care about the bottom line and how much cash they can milk out of it. I also see that from guys who brag about having a huge boa that is only a couple years old etc. I've also noticed some people buy burms, retics and anacondas to seem cool and then dont reaize how big they get and once they get too big, they try and rehome them....surprise, zoos no longer have room to take all those snakes and either do shelters....

On the flip side, you almost never see this with BCC or local stuff. Most of that stuff is slow grown and fed very conservatively so you see these 4 year old BCCs on small rats and only about 4' long.

Anyways, I'm done ranting haha. just had to get that off my chest as i was just talking to a gal a few nights ago about her boa that she felt was skinny and underfed and it actually looked in awesome shape.

That the age of the boa is way off you don,t have to repeat this argument. You can,t own a boa where i live without having identification papers. He is registered. I have him since he was a month old. I told you before that i was there when he was born. So if you still have doubts its your problem. I will post a photo of him in my hand when i bought him, he was a month old. Suddenly you are comparing retic with boa. And you feed frozen. Its not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet.
[IMG][/IMG]

[SDA]

I am wondering if this enclosure size would be enough for him forever or i will have to upgrade in the future?

You asked, we all said no but you decided to contradict time and again experienced advice and justify your incorrect enclosure even though we offered evidence as to why this enclosure is bad for your snake.
It is disappointing to read how resistant you are to change. Your snake is more important than your stubbornness, I had to learn that as well and I hope you do and get things fixed for his sake.

[Dutti]

You asked, we all said no but you decided to contradict time and again experienced advice and justify your incorrect enclosure even though we offered evidence as to why this enclosure is bad for your snake.
It is disappointing to read how resistant you are to change. Your snake is more important than your stubbornness, I had to learn that as well and I hope you do and get things fixed for his sake.

Thank you for your advice. I advice you to increase the height for your snake. 15 inches height is insufficient. You should give your snake a chance to climb specially if it was a male. After Regius_49 did the calculation, he found out that your enclosure 48" x 24" x 15" is 17,280 cubic inches and my enclosure (2' x 2.62' 3.30') is ~29,880 cubic inches (43% difference) for me . So i have much more space than yours, even though floor space is more important. I would prefer my enclosure over yours because my BP won,t be happy in a glass tank. Even my floor space is bigger than a 40 breeder tank. mine is 744 sq and a 40 breeder tank is 648 sq. Additionally for comparison, an IRIS CB-70 (37 qt tub) is 33.5" x 17.8" or 596 sq. inches of floor space. I have quoted these numbers from Regius_49.

[MissterDog]

This isn't the first time you've made a thread and blatantly ignored and fought against advice given to you. If you're so convinced you're doing the right thing and confident in your decision, why waste everyone's time? Clearly you're miles ahead of us in husbandry and don't need or want anyone's input. I guess everyone was wrong to question your judgement since you have it all figured out right.

You don't need our help. Your ego is plenty.

[Regius_049]

After Regius_49 did the calculation, he found out that your enclosure 48" x 24" x 15" is 17,280 cubic inches and my enclosure (2' x 2.62' 3.30') is ~29,880 cubic inches (43% difference) for me . So i have much more space than yours, even though floor space is more important. I would prefer my enclosure over yours because my BP won,t be happy in a glass tank. Even my floor space is bigger than a 40 breeder tank. mine is 744 sq and a 40 breeder tank is 648 sq. Additionally for comparison, an IRIS CB-70 (37 qt tub) is 33.5" x 17.8" or 596 sq. inches of floor space. I have quoted these numbers from Regius_49.

As foolish as I am likely being, I feel I should clarify a few things since I am being quoted:

1. Even though your tank has 43% larger volume than a 48" x 24" x 15" enclosure, your tank has less usable space and does not have as great a single dimension. Since volume is not directly usable by the snake beyond a certain threshold, lets go back to sq. inches as maybe that was a better way of putting this. While some "air" space is good for mobility and convenience, a snake can't lay on it. His tank has 1152 sq. inches and yours has 744 sq. inches (again). If we add in your 21" x 14" board and branches we would get approximately 1138. So the 48"x 24" x 15" is a little bigger, but not by much, enough that I could call them more or less even. However, he has a flat 48" area (or ~54" diagonally) and all level, flat surfaces. So to say your tank has "more space" is objectively true, but again, a good deal of it is wasted as is the unavoidable caveat with most taller / conventionally arboreal style setups.

2. The enclosure SDA posted is a plastic PVC enclosure from reptile basics, not a glass tank. This style of enclosure is, in my opinion, the current best available enclosure for captive snakes. They are lighter, insulate better than glass, have front-open doors, and are already opaque.

As I have said before, the ideal enclosure for a ball python is probably around 4' x 2-2.5' x 1-2'. If I had unlimited space, I would probably do 4' x 2.5' x 2', or larger for abnormally large females (I have seen a few push 6kg). The 4' x 2-2.5' is obvious, but height is more subjective. I prefer height for two major reasons: (1) This one is mainly for me; I don't like dealing with 12" enclosures because the door opening is too small for manipulating the cage and it's contents. (2) When a ball python swallows, most of the time, you will notice them raise up the front 1/4" of their body to aid in swallowing (presumably to let gravity assist them in consuming their prey item). A 6" tub is not high enough for this (assuming an adult snake). Clearly they can consume prey in a 6" tub, but I feel their is a quality of life improves with taller cages. Like I said, before, I am not opposed to the addition of more height beyond this (though controlling heat and humidity become more complicated the taller you get), but under no circumstances would I sacrifice length and floor space for height regardless of ball python gender or size. This is effectively what you are doing. If you are so concerned about enriching your snake's environment, why not give it a 4' x 2' x 3'?

It seems telling that some of the most experienced arboreal snake keepers in the world still recommend a 3-4' x 1.5-2' x 2' cage. Even for snakes that are arboreal by nature, and don't just temporarily adopt the title for hunting purposes, these are the dimensions they have come up with. I have given you some reasons already, such as usable space, but there is also the thermal gradient to consider. I would type it out but it would be easier just to quote Maxwell on green tree python caging:

"Cages should be approximately 24 inches tall, 18 to 24 inches deep, and 30 to 40 inches long. This size and shape allows the establishment of a thermal gradient, which should be about 82 to 88 degrees. A horizontal aspect makes this easy; therefore cages should be oriented horizontally rather than vertically. While this may seem counter-intuitive for an arboreal species, the fact is that most chondros will use the highest perch in a cage regardless of temperature. In a tall, narrow cage the highest perch will also be the warmest, and the animal will choose height over thermal preference. Avoid small cages such as the common 24-inch cube; these are not large enough to provide an adequate thermal gradient"

In regards to glass tanks, I think glass tanks are less ideal as in my person experience, a variety of snake species seem to feel less secure in them and displayed increased aggressive behavior when given (essentially) identical furnishings, temperatures, and humidity. However, this is not to say people have not successfully kept snakes in them for years though and they can be relatively easily modified to increase the feeling of security by using black contact paper to "black out" the sides and back of the tank. Glass aquarium style enclosures used to be the standard for decades.

In short, your cage is not "better" than a 48" x 24" x 15" to really anyone experienced with keeping boid snakes and it would be unequivocally better if you turned your enclosure on it's side. If you wanted to argue a 4' x 2' x 2-3' cage, was an improvement on the proposed 4' x 2' x 15", you would have some ground to stand on. However, to be complete, a 2' x 2.62' 3.30' is again arguably better than a standard 40 gallon breeder assuming 36" x 18" x 16" (though 31.5" is still cutting it pretty close for a good thermal gradient) and definitely better than the conventional 32-41 qt. tubs ball pythons are conventionally kept it. If we lambast him for his cage, we should really have the same standard for adult ball pythons in these tubs. Though I suspect as this point, it is more your attitude that is drawing ire and not your enclosure.

[Godzilla78]

[Sauzo]

That the age of the boa is way off you don,t have to repeat this argument. You can,t own a boa where i live without having identification papers. He is registered. I have him since he was a month old. I told you before that i was there when he was born. So if you still have doubts its your problem. I will post a photo of him in my hand when i bought him, he was a month old. Suddenly you are comparing retic with boa. And you feed frozen. Its not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet.
[IMG][/IMG]

"It's not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet" With that comment alone, i rest my case on your snake knowledge. Maybe where you come from but in the states, i have never seen a 10 foot BCI. I have seen people claim on the boards they have a 10 foot BCI and show a pic but there is never anything to compare it to and people also tend to exaggerate. Said 10 foot snake put up against a measuring tape ends up being a 7 foot snake lol. Now i have seen 9-10' BCC but those were old snakes that the owners had for 10+ years

And where you live, you have to have ID papers for each snake? Where do you live and how do they register them? I mean is there a department of reptiles? Do you have to get a photo of them with weight and everything like a drivers license and then they are entered into a state/city/county database? That's wild.

And i wasnt comparing a retic to a boa. You linked a feeding video which really showed nothing other than a boa eating a rat. I was saying its not that impressive as i have seen snakes eat for the part 25 years and if i really want to watch a snake eat, i would watch my retic as he is 7' and cant eat some very impressive size meals. So i guess in a way i was comparing i guess but only through the point of eating.

And honestly it's not a problem for me as i know my snakes will live long healthy lives since i feed them correctly. I was more trying to help you so you dont have a dead boa in 5-10 years from fatty liver disease or a heart attack from it growing too fast and putting too much strain on its organs. The only problem is have if any is that you ask for advice and then when given the same answer from multiple people who have kept snakes for years, you argue the point and dont listen. Why even ask for advice then? It makes no sense lol.

And yes i feed FT. Honestly FT has a less chance of transferring parasites to the snake as freezing will kill most of them. With feeding live, you should take a fecal sample into your vet once a year for a float to be done. Plus with something as large as large rats or rabbits, they can pose a real threat to your snake if an accident does happen. Plus i couldnt imagine feeding live quail or chicks to my snakes so thats why i do FT. I give them rabbits, chicks, quails, rats. My retic gets all that plus guinea pigs and if he gets much larger, i will probably be ordering FT piglets from Monster Feeders lol.

[Dutti]

"It's not unusual for BCI to reach 10 feet" With that comment alone, i rest my case on your snake knowledge. Maybe where you come from but in the states, i have never seen a 10 foot BCI. I have seen people claim on the boards they have a 10 foot BCI and show a pic but there is never anything to compare it to and people also tend to exaggerate. Said 10 foot snake put up against a measuring tape ends up being a 7 foot snake lol. Now i have seen 9-10' BCC but those were old snakes that the owners had for 10+ years

And where you live, you have to have ID papers for each snake? Where do you live and how do they register them? I mean is there a department of reptiles? Do you have to get a photo of them with weight and everything like a drivers license and then they are entered into a state/city/county database? That's wild.

And i wasnt comparing a retic to a boa. You linked a feeding video which really showed nothing other than a boa eating a rat. I was saying its not that impressive as i have seen snakes eat for the part 25 years and if i really want to watch a snake eat, i would watch my retic as he is 7' and cant eat some very impressive size meals. So i guess in a way i was comparing i guess but only through the point of eating.

And honestly it's not a problem for me as i know my snakes will live long healthy lives since i feed them correctly. I was more trying to help you so you dont have a dead boa in 5-10 years from fatty liver disease or a heart attack from it growing too fast and putting too much strain on its organs. The only problem is have if any is that you ask for advice and then when given the same answer from multiple people who have kept snakes for years, you argue the point and dont listen. Why even ask for advice then? It makes no sense lol.

And yes i feed FT. Honestly FT has a less chance of transferring parasites to the snake as freezing will kill most of them. With feeding live, you should take a fecal sample into your vet once a year for a float to be done. Plus with something as large as large rats or rabbits, they can pose a real threat to your snake if an accident does happen. Plus i couldnt imagine feeding live quail or chicks to my snakes so thats why i do FT. I give them rabbits, chicks, quails, rats. My retic gets all that plus guinea pigs and if he gets much larger, i will probably be ordering FT piglets from Monster Feeders lol.

There is a department for animals in general. I'm not sure if dogs also get registered there or in a different department because I don't own dogs. But snakes are divided according to their kinds, some kinds are considered dangerous so they require registration and you get an approval letter to own them from the department and they get entered into a state/city/county database. In order to get the approval letter, the snake must have a kind of a birth certificate where it's kind and date of birth is registered. No photos are required. Other kinds of snakes like ball pythons don't have to be registered but they must have a birth certificate as a proof of origin. And some other kinds don't need even a birth certificate like corn snakes. The kinds that considered highly endangered in the wild like Dumeril boa must be registered in a different department with a photo documentation and they are entered into a state/city/county data base. Every year photos of the snake must be made and get stamped by the department.

[Sauzo]

Dumerils considered dangerous?? Lol my dumerils is the most laid back of any of my snakes hands down. She will literally lay on me in bed while I watch a movie and pretty much never move haha.

That's insane. All those hoops to jump through. Where I live, the only reptiles that cant be owned are crocodilea, venomous snakes and crocodile and water monitors. Funny though, you can own Gila and Beaded lizards which are the only venomous lizards but cant own venomous snakes. And to own any of ok said stuff, you don't need to register anything. That's why I'm sooo close to pulling the trigger on a gila monster. Just need to round up the $1000-1100 for one and still keep flipping the coin on that or another suriname or Peruvian BCC. Cant make up my mind

[Dutti]

Dumerils considered dangerous?? Lol my dumerils is the most laid back of any of my snakes hands down. She will literally lay on me in bed while I watch a movie and pretty much never move haha.

That's insane. All those hoops to jump through. Where I live, the only reptiles that cant be owned are crocodilea, venomous snakes and crocodile and water monitors. Funny though, you can own Gila and Beaded lizards which are the only venomous lizards but cant own venomous snakes. And to own any of ok said stuff, you don't need to register anything. That's why I'm sooo close to pulling the trigger on a gila monster. Just need to round up the $1000-1100 for one and still keep flipping the coin on that or another suriname or Peruvian BCC. Cant make up my mind

You didn't read carefully what I wrote or misunderstood. Dumerils are not considered dangerous. They are endangered in the wild, the wild population of the snake is in danger. Such animals must be registered at the department for the protection of nature with photo documentation. Where I live Boa Constrictors are considered dangerous and must be registered. Also big snakes burms, retics, anacondas.