Project Help

[JustinGatCat]

Hey Guys! I’m doing a project on ball pythons and Breeding for one of my classes. We’re doing a sort of a research based project where we come up with something to study and research and stuff, so I decided to do mines to figure out if snakes can be domesticated completely. Now I don’t want to get too deep in the logics of my project, but I was wondering if you guys could give me a ballpark figure on home much it costs to run a small breeding project annually. One of our tasks is to see how much our research costs, and what better way I thought than to ask other breeders and members of the community. Now my project isn’t revolving around morphs and stuff, rather tempermant and disposition. Any insight is much appreciated! Thanks!!


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[honeybee]

So I can't give much insight into breeding costs as I'm a new owner of one lil snake, but I can link you to SDA's post on here about a conditioning experiment he's been working on with his BP. It's a very interesting read and seems to fit in with your project concerning snake domestication.

Here's the thread, I'm going to be following this one as well because I'm also quite interested in the basic costs of running a breeding project. I'd like to get into it myself one day and having some general figures to consider would be amazing

Good luck with your research!

[SDA]

Thanks for mentioning me (BTW I am a she but that's ok)

No, snakes can never be domesticated like cattle or house pets such as dogs. The belief is that mammals genetically crave physical contact for security and bonding while most reptiles do not exhibit such behavior. Some small exceptions exist such as crocodiles and alligators tending to nests and guarding young when born but the vast majority have no physical interaction at the maternal/paternal level short of keeping eggs warm.

Yes, I do believe however that they can be trained to a lesser extent like some lizards can. I am working on conditioning mine to come to the opening when he is interested in coming out. It is still early to be confident in my results but I have noticed some interesting results that lead me to believe he is learning.

As for domesticating through breeding, I am not sure there have been any studies showing traits, if selective breeding is done, can lead to more docile or agreeable snakes. I would love to know if that is the case because it would completely change our understanding of reptiles. I think one of the reasons we do not know is snakes are bred for appearance and not docile behavior.

I assume you are basing your questions on similar studies and breeding programs done in Russia with wild foxes and seeing if the same could be done with snakes.

[JustinGatCat]

Thanks for mentioning me (BTW I am a she but that's ok)

No, snakes can never be domesticated like cattle or house pets such as dogs. The belief is that mammals genetically crave physical contact for security and bonding while most reptiles do not exhibit such behavior. Some small exceptions exist such as crocodiles and alligators tending to nests and guarding young when born but the vast majority have no physical interaction at the maternal/paternal level short of keeping eggs warm.

Yes, I do believe however that they can be trained to a lesser extent like some lizards can. I am working on conditioning mine to come to the opening when he is interested in coming out. It is still early to be confident in my results but I have noticed some interesting results that lead me to believe he is learning.

As for domesticating through breeding, I am not sure there have been any studies showing traits, if selective breeding is done, can lead to more docile or agreeable snakes. I would love to know if that is the case because it would completely change our understanding of reptiles. I think one of the reasons we do not know is snakes are bred for appearance and not docile behavior.

I assume you are basing your questions on similar studies and breeding programs done in Russia with wild foxes and seeing if the same could be done with snakes.

This is exactly why I want to do my project on snake breeding. A lot of people say reptiles and snakes can’t be domesticated or tamed, but I say nuts to that. We’ve domesticated animals for thousands of years. Dogs, cats, horses, cattle, goats, small rodents and birds. Hell, we humans have taken a simple carp and have turned it into an incredible animal known as the Goldfish, which can have a memory span of three months, recognize faces, choose favorites, and be comfortable enough to be hand fed and pet. Remember, snakes and reptiles have only started being bred in captivity, starting in the late 1900’s(while information is quite skewed, serious reptile breeding in captivity started around the late 1980’s). Compared to dogs, who have been with us for 15,000 years. Snakes and reptiles have only just got into the picture, now that people are starting to rid of the stigmas and fears or reptiles. And almost all reptiles on market today are being bred exclusively for morphs and appearance rather than temperament and tameness. My hypothesis is that with concentrated breeding for only temperament, we can see notable changes in reptiles behavior.


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[JustinGatCat]

So I can't give much insight into breeding costs as I'm a new owner of one lil snake, but I can link you to SDA's post on here about a conditioning experiment he's been working on with his BP. It's a very interesting read and seems to fit in with your project concerning snake domestication.

Here's the thread, I'm going to be following this one as well because I'm also quite interested in the basic costs of running a breeding project. I'd like to get into it myself one day and having some general figures to consider would be amazing

Good luck with your research!

I’d be using snakes like the Dante in the breeding project. Animals who are willing to approach humans in a curious and friendly manner, and seeing if traits like this can be bred.


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[JodanOrNoDan]

I am intentionally breeding for size and behavior. There so far seems to be a corollary whether direct or indirect between the genetic size of the animal and how mellow it is. My large animals and their larger offspring all tend to be exceptionally mellow animals.

I am not far enough into this yet to make any scientific claims but behavior seems to be at least 50% conditioning and that conditioning starts while they are still in the egg. I have yet to hatch any truly nasty snakes. This coming season will be the real test. I have two very nasty females and one nasty male that I purchased that are ready to go and will be bred. If they do not produce nasty offspring I am going to believe that conditioning has far more to do with behavior than genetics.

As to costs, I could probably figure it out for you but much of your cost is going to have more to do with your rat supply and where you live. I do not have to cool or heat very much so my electricity is negligible. Rats by far are the greatest expense. A breeding adult female will eat on average 1 medium rat a week for 9 months out of the year. Males on average will eat one small weekly to bi-weekly for 8 months out of the year. Paper substrate costs about 3 cents per change which happens weekly or bi-weekly. It costs me about $10 to add an adult tub to my system, $2 for a baby. $25 to build an adult rack, $20 for a baby rack.

The final two costs are time and surprise vet bills. If I factor in time, I am losing money. I make more money at my real job. Vet bills can be ridiculous.

[SDA]

You would also need to rule out if the snake is aggressive or bad tempered due to nature or nurture. I have seen first hand people claiming their reptile is mal tempered only to have it rehomed to someone capable of working with and reading moods where it turned out the bad egg is actually a great animal. That is another key aspect we all are guilty of forgetting... these animals have moods and personalities and it is important to read those if you want to have a good "pet". I think however that goes for any animal even us

[enginee837]

Assuming your small breeding project consisted of 1 male and 2 females and assuming you want a turn key set up that is reliable and consistent I will tell you this.
1 - ve6 rack system 269.00
1 - ve300 thermostat 139.00
3 - ve108-23 tubs 25.50 (for adults)
6 - ve108-11 tubs (for hatchlings)
6 - medium hide boxes 30.00
12- small hide boxes 36.00
3 - large water dishes 12.00
6 - small dishes 18.00
Hovabator incubator 50.00
Vermiculite 10.00
Feeding tongs 5.00
Year supply of ft food 200.00
Assorted other supplies for a year - 100.00

Then you have to purchase the snakes. If you want accurate comparison on attitude you should probably keep the same morphs/combos, for the sake of producing desirable animals I would avoid normals. Morphs will cost more up front but it costs the same to feed animals that produce 50.00 babies as it does to feed animals that produce 500.00 babies. I would also avoid morphs that risk neuro/physical deformities (again for the sake of a standard baseline).

Disclaimer- there are definitely cheaper ways to go about this however this list will give you the minimum you will need and require the least diy knowledge. You will probably not produce hatchlings for 18-24 months if you buy hatchlings/subadults. When you do produce you may need another rack and incubator depending on clutch number and size.

Hope this helps.