wild-caught ball pythons irritable sick disease starvation

[Praomys]

56,337 members on this forum as of 3/13/17

I get it that most of you are into CBB and am guessing only ~37 members have experience with WC.

If you are 1 and are reading this could you please comment on this copy/paste: "... wild-caught ball pythons are horrific captives. Wild-caught individuals are often rife with pathogens and parasites, and are notoriously difficult to induce to eat in captivity. Although the species can be calm and docile, the stress caused by importation often makes the wild-caught individual defensive. All too often, wild-caught ball pythons are irritable and sick, lasting only a few miserable months before they succumb to disease or starvation."

It's from: http://animals.mom.me/10-worst-snakes-pets-3439.html

I get the "notoriously difficult to induce to eat" part, they want live African rodents not common rats and especially not F/T common rats.

The pathogens and parasites. Does permethrin fix it?

And the irritable sick disease starvation parts?

thank you!

[zina10]

I used to own 2 CB (captive born NOT bred) Ball Pythons and also did rescue, which consisted of quite a few WC.

All the WC ones I got, I was able to return to good health. And some were pretty sick. I had skinny ones, blister disease, parasites (external and internal), RI's.
NONE of them were aggressive. Not even defensive. All were extremely shy.

The 2 CB ones were a delight from day one. Healthy and had the best temperament of ANY of the Ball Pythons I've had, incl. the 6 morphs I have now. That, of course, was probably just a fluke. I'm not saying that normals, WC or CB have certain personality characteristics. Just saying that they are not all aggressive or defensive by default.

Back to the WC. None of the ones I had were "fresh" imports. They were imports that had never been treated, that didn't eat for their keepers, that were neglected. So all in all, they were in WORSE shape then fresh imports. For all of those, medical attention was #1 priority. I didn't even attempt to feed them, it was clear they weren't healthy enough to eat or digest.
All the treatments were done with Vet approval and supervision. I would bring the animal in for a diagnosis, it would get the first treatment at the Vet office and I continued the treatment at home. I had a awesome Vet back then. He let me see the "nasties" under the microscope and always explained everything thoroughly.

Most had mites, some had ticks. Those can be treated easy enough. Most also had worms. The ones that were extremely emaciated often had a Protozoan infection such as Giardia. Of course there were also RI's and like I said, blister disease. Some had a variety of problems. External parasites were treated with PAM and keeping husbandry simple and spotless (papertowels, cleaning daily) For the worms we treated with Panacur, orally. The Giardia was treated with Flagyl, orally. The RI's got shots of antibiotics.

Blister disease usually resolved itself once the health improved and the husbandry was spot on. (and clean) I got a liquid to mix with water and have them soak in it for a few minutes, but I don't remember what that was. Betadine maybe? The water was only a quarter inch high or so. Only needed to be done once or twice if I remember correctly.

All that was NOT easy. It was quite the job. But they all turned out alright with intensive care.

Some took rats right away, the stubborn ones were started on Gerbils. ALL OF THEM eventually switched not only to rats, but to FT rats. It can be done.

Nowadays, with so many quality CBB Ball Python available, I don't see why someone would want to go through all the trouble.

Long story short, starvation ? Yes, usually because of protozoans, parasites or disease.

Irritable? Well, they were shy. And stressed. None bit or even hissed. Doesn't mean that they are all that way.

Permethrin fixes external parasites (if used correctly) but usually you have far more issues then that going on, unless the animal was already treated. Back then many people had Panacur and Flagyl on hand and treated all animals that came in, just in case.

All that said, this was years ago. I'm not sure if other meds are used nowadays. Any medical treatment should be done after a Vet has given a Diagnosis and prescribed the correct meds.

That is all I can think of.


In case I'm not making sense, or my grammar and spelling is way off, english is my second language and I have a pretty severe flu. I'm also heavily medicated, so bear with me

[StillBP]

I have had 4 WC import female ball pythons. 2 of which I still have and 2 I sold. I bought them as sub adults they were about 350g each. All had ticks and other pests but my vet cleared that up. I started them on ASF and moved all 4 to normal rats with minor difficulty. At 3 years I sold two who were nearly 2000g each, and still have 2 but will be letting them go as soon as they lay this year. But anyone who is willing to take the time and has a good reptile vet can acclimate WC, BUT you must be willing to spend the money on vet bills and meds and willing to invest alot of time in a WC animal. It is because of the time and money and overall health I would still recommend CBB for just about everyone unless you are looking for a dinker and even then most don't pay out.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

This article (published on a site full of advertisement and pop ups) is a waste of time it is no different then the human society's articles or those wrote by Peta, it's not only about WC BP it's about everything else, it's probably written by an animal right activist and I would not waste my time trying to convince them because it's not something that can't be done.

Now if it was someone SEEKING advice and coming here on this forum to know if a WC was right for them it would be different.

WC can be a lot of trouble and yes some never adjust fully for the rest it is treatable. Not a snake I would recommend to someone with limited experience.

CH are different they hatch in giant pits in Africa from eggs collected in the wild.

Peta HSUS and other animal activist do not care about experience, science or facts they only care about their agenda so articles like this should be taken with a grain of salt.






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[Praomys]

... All the WC ones I got. ... NONE of them were aggressive. Not even defensive. All were extremely shy.
... Most also had worms. The ones that were extremely emaciated often had a Protozoan infection such as Giardia. ... Nowadays, with so many quality CBB Ball Python available, I don't see why someone would want to go through all the trouble. ... Permethrin fixes external parasites ...

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't really expecting any, especially one this prompt and thorough.

3 weeks ago we received a large (4300 gram) gravid, WC import from the Volta region of Ghana. She has only 1 eye, I love her gnarly look. Last week she deposited 14 eggs. She has been coiled on & around them most of the time. (This thread will NOT be hijacked into a maternal incubation vs artificial incubation debate.) She also is neither aggressive nor defensive, and she also is extremely shy, even while guarding her clutch.

At some point between capture and shipping to us she had been treated with Permethrin, which is ineffective vs internal diseases, right? How would we know if worms or Giardia are present? Can we safely assume that because she has deposited a clutch (a rather large one) and is incubating it that she is healthy? Or would this assumption be false?

Your question re why someone would want WC vs CBB. It's one of those things where if you have to ask the question then you probably won't understand the answer, but anyway here goes: I don't like snakes of unnatural appearance. We see that MorphMarket has "119 different genes and traits" (probably 120 by the time I click send for this message) of Ball Pythons, but to me there are only 2 categories: Normals and Abnormals. Evolution and what it has created are beautiful, far more so than what artificial selection can "produce." I find the subjective paint jobs of today's Ball Pythons blasphemous. I like having dinosaurs in my house. Was that of any help? I can't articulate it any better.

She has been leaving her clutch for short intervals during the night, apparently seeking prey. Could we interpret this as a sign of health? or would an ill reptile also continue to hunt? We have been keeping snakes in both racks as well as glass tanks on & off for 40yrs and can identify hungry Ball Pythons in the latter, (there are only so many hours/days they will lie in ambush, unlike our Blood Pythons). Her enclosure is of perfect temp/humidity, covered almost entirely with a heavy dark blanket rendering the entire closure a hide. We have offered a weaned ASF rat pup during daylight hours to no avail. The next night we see her leave the clutch we will try again.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

WC can be an uphill battle what experience do you have with WC? Is it your first?

ASF do not always work, I had a WC that would not touch them, the bigger and older the animal the more difficult just like CBB

Some female a lot in fact will not eat while with their clutch some will even stop feeding while the clutch is incubated artificially.

At that size don't worry about it even if she does not eat for a year she will be ok so long she is healthy.

As for internal parasites many will treat import on arrival ragardless, if it was not done do it especially if you have other snakes. Invermectin is usually the treatment of choice.

Finally on the "unatural" you can criticize however some people will likely criticize back, taking a older animal likely around 5+ years away from it's natural environment, is nothing natural, neither is keeping snake in captivity some will find it blasphemous as well.

BTW all base mutations NATURALLY occur in the wild......I know blasphemy lol

[JodanOrNoDan]

You will need a fecal done to determine internal parasites. I do not have any WC balls in my collection but I have kept wc of other species. Regardless of how the animal behaves I would assume it has internal parasites.

Egg incubation is up to the keeper. You will have a higher hatch rate when using an incubator properly.

There is a very good chance your animal will not eat as long as the eggs are present. It happens, but it is rare.

As an aside, it may be good to recognize that most if not all ball python mutations originated in nature and were originally found in wild caught stock. A "normal" is no more or less natural than a fire, a pastel, a lesser, an albino etc. Granted, the combos are very unlikely to occur in nature but it is possible. Rare snake A would have to meet rare snake B. Not likely.

I have no problem with people keeping wc if that is what they like. Most of us avoid it for exactly the problems you are concerned with. It is great a one eyed snake found a home. I only disagree with your reasoning for keeping wild caught. Your wc is no more or less a natural ball python than any of the animals in my collection.

[zina10]

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't really expecting any, especially one this prompt and thorough.

Your question re why someone would want WC vs CBB. It's one of those things where if you have to ask the question then you probably won't understand the answer, but anyway here goes: I don't like snakes of unnatural appearance. We see that MorphMarket has "119 different genes and traits" (probably 120 by the time I click send for this message) of Ball Pythons, but to me there are only 2 categories: Normals and Abnormals. Evolution and what it has created are beautiful, far more so than what artificial selection can "produce." I find the subjective paint jobs of today's Ball Pythons blasphemous. I like having dinosaurs in my house. Was that of any help? I can't articulate it any better.

First of all, like I said, English is my second language and sometimes I have a hard time getting a point across the way I intended. So, I will say in advance, my reply means no offense.

That said, I find your answer puzzling. Why wouldn't anyone that asks that question understand your answer? Opinions are like you know what. Everyone has one. There could be many reasons why some people prefer WC over CB. Normals over Morphs and visa versa. I think we all "get" the different reasons. Might not agree with it, but certainly understand the point.

Morphs are not abnormal. They all originated in the wild. None were created by mad scientist in a petri dish. Granted the COMBO'S thereof would most likely not happen in the wild, due to the rarity of color morphs.

However, taking 2 normals out of the wild and breeding them in captivity is really not ethically any different then picking 2 morphs out of the wild and breeding them. The result is the same. CH Ball Pythons. Some are different colored.
I can understand that some people prefer the "normal" coloration. Of which there is a wide variety as well, one must note.

Honestly, I find the subject of importing WC Ball Pythons far more off putting. Having seen first hand how these animals arrive. For each that arrives "alive" there are probably 20 that died during the process of being collected and arriving in our country. I find that sad. Not to mention out of the ones that did arrive alive, how many ended up in good homes that got them thriving? No, for me, that is WAY to much collateral damage done. Especially since there are so many Ball Pythons captive bred and born. Healthy, unstressed animals. Many of them "normal" colored, if one isn't into "morphs".

I had 2 Volta females. One was 4500 gr. the other 3700. They are majestic animals, quite different with their HUGE head compared to other localities. However, the whole process of importing gravid animals also don't sit well with me. All that stress.

Well, I really just meant to say, I GET your point. I don't agree with it. I get liking "normals" better then morphs. But I don't agree with the idea of WC being preferable over CBB animals, for reasons I mentioned above.

The only real market left for WC animals is the one where people sift through them looking for "new" dinkers. Or for the gravid Voltas. For each of those, many others die. That, is just a fact.

She was collected gravid. That she laid a clutch and is incubating it is not necessarily a indicator that she doesn't have some parasites. It means her parasite load hasn't reached critical limits yet of making her sick enough to die. Usually wild animals live quite alright with a load of parasites. It is when they come under intense stress, such as being collected and exported, that their immune systems take a hit and the parasite load overwhelms their system. They are forced to travel in bundles, feces and urine intermingled, germs passed between each other. One thing leads to another.

The only way to know for sure is to get a fresh fecal to a vet. Without her eating, that may be a problem. Some vets can extract enough material to put under the microscope, but you would have to bring her to the Vet. Which you wouldn't want to do while she is on eggs. You say that maternal or not incubation isn't up for discussion. So be it. But if that were my animal that I cared about, I would get her off the eggs, wash her down real good and start on getting her 100% healthy in every way. Then start on getting her feeding. Whatever it takes. Leaving her on the eggs just delays the process.

I know I'm being long winded here, but I DO very much care about those animals. I treated many WC, some on the verge of death. I've had captive hatched, WC, normals, morphs. And I loved / love them all.

I wish you good luck with your endeavor, I wish the best for your female and her hatchlings.

[paulh]

I've had at least 8 ball pythons, all but one wild caught.

I agree with the other posters. IMO, the quote in the original post is way over the top. Remember, the record holder for age was wild caught. And every single ball python in the USA either hatched in Africa or is descended from snakes that hatched in Africa.

The general definition for a normal or wild type ball python is one that looks like most of those crawling around in Africa. There are plenty of captive bred normal ball pythons. I prefer captive bred snakes because they generally have fewer vet problems and adapt to captive conditions better than wild caught. But that is only a preference; I've owned and bred my share of wild caught adult snakes.

[cletus]

I had two adult normals in the early 90s that might have been WC. They were pretty docile but did come infested with mites. They ate well but never got as fat as my current BPs. There was only one petshop near me that had reptiles and I bought a can of something there to treat the mites. It wasn't PAM. The guy told me to spray the inside of a snake bag and put the snakes in the bag for about 5 minutes so that's what I did and it worked and didn't seem to hurt the snakes. I just soaked the enclosures in a wicked strong bleach solution overnight and it controlled the mites pretty well. It seemed like most anything you bought in pet shops back then was covered in mites. My burm was infested as well as all the boas I bought from stores. I wish back then I know what I know now.