Mites

[MissterDog]

I've ordered the provent a mite and will treat when it arrives.
Sorry I have "limited experience". I wasn't just born with the knowledge of taking care of a snake.
I joined this forum to get help and learn things. Not get bashed and talked to like I'm doing the worst things in the world.
The internet is full of so many different things about how to care for a ball python. How am I supposed to know which things to believe and which things not to.

I guess I'll be learning this all on my own in my own way and see how things go for me and my new snake. Thanks to the ones that have actually been helpful and not rude.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im sorry you feel this way. I admit I think you're taking things too personally. I can guarantee everyone's intention here is to help you, even if you feel it's a little too upfront. I know just reading text can be hard to figure out a person's tone, but sometimes the tone you think the person is projecting is not always accurate. At worst you were given constructive criticism and I doubt anyone is judging you for being new. So don't worry! I don't think you started off on the wrong foot yet! Just a simple misunderstanding. What's important is that you got good info to help your noodle baby. Please don't shy away!

Good luck on getting rid of those mites, sounds like nasty business yikes!

[Slither Seeker]

snake mites have 5 life stages, 4 of which are basically invisible. If you see one, there are many more on the way to becoming visible. the visible stage is the last, adult stage where the mite has a blood meal and reproduces using the proteins from the snake. oil used to be common but has been deemed ineffective now that there are strong but relatively safe pesticides. PAM is the go to now a days.

I have spider morph babies and given the propensity to develop neurological issues I am reluctant to dose them with a strong pesticide like the one in PAM. I have taken a stepped approach to wiping out the mites one of my babies came with and it appears to have worked well.
1) remove the snake, take everything out of the enclosure including substrate, spray with reptile spray (less toxic than PAM) and let sit sealed up for 15-20 minutes, dry and add "mite guard" powder (even if all it does is dry them out as a desiccant). for about 5-6 weeks, keep the enclosure very simple, two hides, water dish and paper towel lining and thats it. you must break the cycle of baby mites becoming adults and laying more eggs.
2) clean hides, line enclosure with paper towels then put hides back in.
3) wash off snake in running water, being careful to use 85ish degree water. inspect for adult black mites, remove if on the surface of the snake and squash between fingers or wash down the drain.
4) set up a water bath, using a shallow tupperware container with firm fitting lid. fill with 85-90 degree water covering the snake, not too deep, leaving air for the snake to breathe. allow snake to soak for 20-30 minutes, checking on the snake periodically to assure it's not distressed, opening lid for fresh air at least once.
5) dry off snake and and put snake away, then inspect water bath for mites and discard. place all paper from the cleaning process in a zip lock bag and discard.
6) I repeated the baths and changing the paper out and washing the hides daily for the first week or so, until I no longer saw adult mites, then every couple of days. then resprayed the enclosure with reptile spray and wiped it out again. If I held the glass tupperware over a dark surface I could see tiny white specks sunk at the bottom and I'm assuming they were juvenile mites but I can't be sure.

this approach takes a lot of work at the beginning. I wondered if it was stressful for my snakes so I tried feeding them after one of their baths and they ate readily, so it must not be too bad if care is taken to get the temp right.

PAM is the nuclear bomb, and it is very effective but I do see reason to not use it as the first line of defense. good quarantine practices for new snakes in a collection should help reduce the risk of an outbreak and lesson the need for drastic measures. if it can be avoided then great, as is potentially toxic to snakes. something that is not talked about much is that mites, like all bugs, quickly build resistance. avoiding over use of pesticides is a good idea just like avoiding over use of antibiotics, you want to use them sparingly so they work well when you need them most rather than helping to produce a PAM resistant strain of mites. If I were a breeder or had a large collection, I probably wouldn't have the time to bother with the harder more natural approach, so I'm certainly not blaming anyone who chooses to use it as directed, it's just my personal inclination to err on the side of caution with it's use if possible. that said, it's also important to complete the course of treatment with any pesticide once you determine it's necessary to use, till all the bugs are eradicated so as not to leave even a few resistant ones to pass on their resistant genes.

[JodanOrNoDan]

snake mites have 5 life stages, 4 of which are basically invisible. If you see one, there are many more on the way to becoming visible. the visible stage is the last, adult stage where the mite has a blood meal and reproduces using the proteins from the snake. oil used to be common but has been deemed ineffective now that there are strong but relatively safe pesticides. PAM is the go to now a days.

I have spider morph babies and given the propensity to develop neurological issues I am reluctant to dose them with a strong pesticide like the one in PAM. I have taken a stepped approach to wiping out the mites one of my babies came with and it appears to have worked well.
1) remove the snake, take everything out of the enclosure including substrate, spray with reptile spray (less toxic than PAM) and let sit sealed up for 15-20 minutes, dry and add "mite guard" powder (even if all it does is dry them out as a desiccant). for about 5-6 weeks, keep the enclosure very simple, two hides, water dish and paper towel lining and thats it. you must break the cycle of baby mites becoming adults and laying more eggs.
2) clean hides, line enclosure with paper towels then put hides back in.
3) wash off snake in running water, being careful to use 85ish degree water. inspect for adult black mites, remove if on the surface of the snake and squash between fingers or wash down the drain.
4) set up a water bath, using a shallow tupperware container with firm fitting lid. fill with 85-90 degree water covering the snake, not too deep, leaving air for the snake to breathe. allow snake to soak for 20-30 minutes, checking on the snake periodically to assure it's not distressed, opening lid for fresh air at least once.
5) dry off snake and and put snake away, then inspect water bath for mites and discard. place all paper from the cleaning process in a zip lock bag and discard.
6) I repeated the baths and changing the paper out and washing the hides daily for the first week or so, until I no longer saw adult mites, then every couple of days. then resprayed the enclosure with reptile spray and wiped it out again. If I held the glass tupperware over a dark surface I could see tiny white specks sunk at the bottom and I'm assuming they were juvenile mites but I can't be sure.

this approach takes a lot of work at the beginning. I wondered if it was stressful for my snakes so I tried feeding them after one of their baths and they ate readily, so it must not be too bad if care is taken to get the temp right.

PAM is the nuclear bomb, and it is very effective but I do see reason to not use it as the first line of defense. good quarantine practices for new snakes in a collection should help reduce the risk of an outbreak and lesson the need for drastic measures. if it can be avoided then great, as is potentially toxic to snakes. something that is not talked about much is that mites, like all bugs, quickly build resistance. avoiding over use of pesticides is a good idea just like avoiding over use of antibiotics, you want to use them sparingly so they work well when you need them most rather than helping to produce a PAM resistant strain of mites. If I were a breeder or had a large collection, I probably wouldn't have the time to bother with the harder more natural approach, so I'm certainly not blaming anyone who chooses to use it as directed, it's just my personal inclination to err on the side of caution with it's use if possible. that said, it's also important to complete the course of treatment with any pesticide once you determine it's necessary to use, till all the bugs are eradicated so as not to leave even a few resistant ones to pass on their resistant genes.

Looks like you have done a little research on mites which is a good thing. I think I do need to clarify some things for the record however. If you have multiple animals PAM as of right now is the best way to get rid of them. Even if you quarantine it is possible for the mites to hitch a ride to the rest of your animals. If that happens your quarantine is in effect broken. I would not ever place a ball python in a pan of water especially with a lid. Especially a spider morph. Last point. Spiders do not develop neurological issues. They are born that way. They can show "more" issues when under stress, such as feeding or being stuck in a pan of water. I do not think it has been determined that they have neurological issues at all. It may be nothing more than a balance problem. I have my opinion on that subject but it is just an opinion.

[Slither Seeker]

...I would not ever place a ball python in a pan of water especially with a lid. Especially a spider morph...

I understand your caution, yet water baths are a common practice for mites and trouble shedding though, so I'm not sure why you would say never, ever? my spiders were a little weak necked early on but quickly became robust with proper care and have not displayed signs of wobble. if I had any indication that they were having trouble keeping their head above water, I would discontinue it. the first time or two in the water bath I was pretty much by their side carefully watching to make sure they were not distressed. it's surprising how they have settled down and seem to tolerate it without resistance now. as for PAM, I am just more on the cautious side, it's certainly a very personal decision as to the trade offs of risking the potential of lethal side effects of a poison vs dealing with the potential of lethal side effects of mites.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I understand your caution. water baths a common practice for mites and trouble shedding though, so I'm not sure why you would say never, ever? .

Because snake do not need to be bath period nt even for a bad shed there are less stressful methods.

Keep in mind that stress + husbandry issues can lead to more severe issue, this is why bath are NEVER recommended. People recommending bath for BP generally just regurgitate something they read from someone with a few snakes, bathing snakes is not a common practice.

[JodanOrNoDan]

I can understand people getting the wrong information about bathing an animal. Even the "pros" can make me wonder sometimes. I saw a vid one time of a very influential breeder bathing one of his animals with a bad shed in a pan of water. This is a guy I respect and I even have a few of his animals in my collection. For the life of me I cannot figure out why he would have done this other than it was the less work intensive way to get it done.

[Sauzo]

Mites will not become resistant to PAM. PAM is basically a poison. It will kill mites, snakes, people and pretty much anything. You're not going to build up a tolerance for it like you could with antibiotics.

PAM is awesome if used correctly. Problem is a lot of people think 'there isn't much coming out, so lets spray the heck out of stuff'. That's where problems start. A little goes a long way on that stuff. You don't need to spray daily. To get rid of mites, I use it weekly or even 2 weeks depending if the snake doesn't piss or poop all over the paper towels.

And like I said, I talked to Bob at Pro Products about the stuff. He said the only reason they said lasts 2 weeks is because when they applied for their registration through the EPA, it showed a 2 week residual on outdoor komodo dragon sand pits with rain. In a much less harsh environment like a house, he said it lasts at least 30 days. He said they actually find it to be effective for several months indoors.

There are lots of people who use Nix, Hot Shot no pest strips, olive oil and all other kinds of home remedies but you know, I would rather trust something 'made' for reptile use over some so called 'home remedy'. And for the love of god, don't listen to people who use those Hot Shot no pest strips hung next to a cage with the animals still in it. You can read right on the box it says not safe for anything in the room.

[Slither Seeker]

thanks for your caution, I will take a fresh look at my sources. just to be clear, my references are not just random you tube channel videos by nubes with just a few snakes. here are a few published references I used for protocols on soaking snakes for various issues, mainly stuck shedding and mites:
Brian from snake bytes tv: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z81K45K1YEU
LLLreptile: https://www.lllreptile.com/articles/...h-snake-mites/
anapsid: http://www.anapsid.org/mites.html
a UK site: http://www.tinyreptiles.co.uk/index....d-of-them.html

if you have any references that explain why bathing a snake is an absolute no no, I am very interested in reading them and trying to sort out the discrepancy.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

thanks for your caution, I will take a fresh look at my sources. just to be clear, my references are not just random you tube channel videos by nubes with just a few snakes. here are a few published references I used for protocols on soaking snakes for various issues, mainly stuck shedding and mites:
Brian from snake bytes tv: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z81K45K1YEU
LLLreptile: https://www.lllreptile.com/articles/...h-snake-mites/
anapsid: http://www.anapsid.org/mites.html
a UK site: http://www.tinyreptiles.co.uk/index....d-of-them.html

if you have any references that explain why bathing a snake is an absolute no no, I am very interested in reading them and trying to sort out the discrepancy.

Because you are high profile or try to be and you publish something it does not mean much, try talking to old timers with decades of experience that don't even participate to online communities.

Just like because you are a vet and see a snake does not mean you know what you are doing fact of the matter many don't, they don't know how to sex, what to do when confronted with a RI yet they have degrees in veterinary medicine.

Melissa Kaplan is the worse of your list, animal activist with limited experience when it comes to the animals she offered advice on, she is the joke of the reptile industry and has been for a very long time.

Bottom line believe what you want to believe do what you want with YOUR snakes, there are other less stressful methods to get rid of mites and or stuck shed and if you want to stress your snake for minor reason that are preventable in the first place, it's fine but baths are stressful and no so called written protocol will ever make this untrue.

After over a decade only 1 of my snake ever had a bath (I have a few ) and it was a female I that I was manipulating since she was egg bound, water's benefit outweigh the stress issue obviously in this type of case.

[Slither Seeker]

it is challenging that there are so many conflicting sources of information. I do my best to reconcile them but I know I have a lot to learn. My understanding, which sounds like it may be wrong, is that in the short run a water bath may be less stressful than the long term effects of a poison and it's residue, to the extent that it can be avoided. that aside, exposing my kids to poison is something I try to limit while their nervous systems are developing. it's a hard line to draw. I appreciate your input and as a result, I will reconsider this practice.

Because you are high profile or try to be and you publish something it does not mean much, try talking to old timers with decades of experience that don't even participate to online communities.

Just like because you are a vet and see a snake does not mean you know what you are doing fact of the matter many don't, they don't know how to sex, what to do when confronted with a RI yet they have degrees in veterinary medicine.

Melissa Kaplan is the worse of your list, animal activist with limited experience when it comes to the animals she offered advice on, she is the joke of the reptile industry and has been for a very long time.

Bottom line believe what you want to believe do what you want with YOUR snakes, there are other less stressful methods to get rid of mites and or stuck shed and if you want to stress your snake for minor reason that are preventable in the first place, it's fine but baths are stressful and no so called written protocol will ever make this untrue.

After over a decade only 1 of my snake ever had a bath (I have a few ) and it was a female I that I was manipulating since she was egg bound, water's benefit outweigh the stress issue obviously in this type of case.