Quick Bioactive Question

[Charles8088]

This question is mainly for anyone currently using a bioactive setup with a BP, though anyone's input is welcomed.

With a bioactive setup, you need a bit deeper layer of substrate. I understand you use the overhead for the heat. But, you can't really use the surface heat with a pad or UTH, obviously. I was of the belief that you need the little basking area below with the hotter temps. This not necessary?

[CALM Pythons]

As long as you have a Basking of 88-91 it doesnt matter how you get it. I use Radiant Heat Panels. On one side its 90 and the other side about 10 degrees less. But make sure you measure the temps down low.
It can be a lot colder at the substrate if you have a 24"-30"H tank heated from above.
(Is that what you were asking bro?)

[Charles8088]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. So, one side is 90, the other 80... got that. The bottom though, like you said, will be colder, no heat source on the bottom. Don't you want a heat source for the bottom, with the hide over it?

[rdoyle]

If one side is 90 you dont need belly heat.

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[CALM Pythons]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. So, one side is 90, the other 80... got that. The bottom though, like you said, will be colder, no heat source on the bottom. Don't you want a heat source for the bottom, with the hide over it?

No Belly heat isnt needed, any heat that will give the cold blooded animal a body temp of 90 Hot Spot and a cool spot of 80.
When I say the temp will be cooler down low im saying measure your temps low where the snake lives not up hight. I have my thermometer Probe measuring temps 4" above the substrate.. 90 one side 80 the other..

[Slither Seeker]

the old expression "there are more ways than one to skin a cat" comes to mind. I've had a bio-active set up for my rainbow boa for 2.5 years with great success, probably due at least in part to a generous serving of luck. I struggled initially to find a way to provide heat inside a closed enclosure (no screen). all forms of overhead heat readily available in the pet trade are overkill and cause humidity/heat balance issues for a snake that prefers moderate warmth and moderate to high moisture. for desert snakes and lizards, no problem, screen tops and heat lamps are the way to go, but IMHO, not so good for a BP or other moisture dependent critters. a huge % of the threads on this forum are, one way or another, related to finding solutions to this struggle.

I prefer front entry enclosures to help regulate temp and humidity, they provide a thermal daming effect. providing any sort of hot spot with a front entry set up is difficult because you have no reasonable/safe way to mount a light bulb or CHE inside a closed top, relatively sealed, enclosure. add a thick substrate for a bio-active set up and your options for bottom mounted heat sources narrow as well.

trapping heat and moisture comes with perils that one must keep in mind. heat encapsulation can lead to run away thermal situations, burns and ultimately fire, so you have to account for that, a reliable thermostat is a must. lowering ventilation to conserve heat and moisture can lead to mold and or anaerobic bacteria and their toxic byproducts, so you have to account for that (I like cypress mulch because it holds up well over time and has a natural anti mold component). so why use a blow torch when you can use a candle? the various heat tapes/heat panels/UTH options when combined with a thermostat seem to offer the best combination of controllable heat, IMHO. the fine members of this forum do a good job promoting various heat tape/UTH/thermostat options that I have found very helpful.

with a bio-active set up for BP's, it appears to me that you are venturing somewhat into uncharted, or less charted territory but it has distinct advantages and some appeal to the biology/ecology minded.

for the hot spot, I would suggest either going under tank or finding a safe way to place a heat source inside. for under tank, using a temp gun to fine tune the temp in part by making the substrate as thin as needed in that place, and placing a hide over it, periodically checking on the temp and watching moisture. a sweet spot is attainable. you can periodically move droppings to the deeper substrate. you will need to increase the temp of the surface under the substrate above what is ideal, should your BP burrow down and contact the glass. there are differing opinions about whether that is a good practice or not, but I believe if you monitor this and use a thermostat, that you reasonably reduce the risk of burns/overheated snake. setting this up toward a side of the enclosure also leaves open the possibility of side mounting more flexwatt tape or an UTH, but that will also need a probe. Herpstat/spyder robotics offers a very elegant way to control multiple probes independently while minimizing spikes in temp. there is one other scenario that I have recently been experimenting with as well, and that is using an UTH on a thick pain of glass for the ceiling of the hide. I've started with a wooden box for my juvenile red foot tortoise, removed most of the top and mounted an UTH to a pain of glass with a probe affixed to it's back, facing down. In a snake enclosure this will need further shielding to prevent direct skin contact from above when the snake climbs on top of the hide, which is easy to do with silicone spacers and a second pain of glass or plexi, leaving room for ventilation so that if/when the thermostat fails, thermal runaway is prevented. look in my gallery if you want to see my DIY UTH set up... so far I'm liking it. I've been tweeking the design for about 2.5 years and I've used it in hermit crab set ups, turtle set ups and snake enclosures. I've run the design by zoo med tecs and the owner of herpstat and taken cautions into consideration.

another moderate heat source is LED lighting. I hang my LED set up, a finnex planted +, using suction cups from above to avoid using adhesive inside the ensclosure. it will create a thermo cline in the tank, heat the glass and radiate some heat downward, but hasn't caused over heating issues so far for me, not even a heat spike in the hides because the probes simply adjust the heat there accordingly. having LED grow lights of some sort allows for adding things like pathos vines (not much else seems to thrive with snakes that trample and turn over substrate). plants do two things that help with a bio-active set up that I'm aware of, they harbor good bacteria and symbiotic mycorhizae, especially in their roots (helps keep things aerobic) and they absorb nitrogenous compounds created by snake dropping decomposition. This has worked really well with my BRB and I'm curious and cautious about how well it will work for my BP's. I use cypress mulch as a base and basically pot the plants and spot feed with organic fertilizer. you can use the mulch to hide the pots for a more scaped look.

to retain heat, I use thermal mass (thick cut glass/ sometimes rock slab above etc) and insulation around the outside. so far, it's not very sexy looking, a bit more like a NASA space project, but it seems to be doing the job quite nicely.

One last thought on my venturing into the bio-active approach so far is about controlling mites. the only practical way to control mites in a bio-active set up is to be OCD about preventing them, as it's very challenging to get rid of them once they occur. I would start with sterilizing the enclosure, freezing the substrate and perhaps even pre-treating the snake, at least with olive oil, maybe even quarentining the snake for a bit prior to adding it to the "biodome". tissue cultured plants are the best for avoiding mites. contact folks like Josh's frogs for sourcing plants that are free of mites. I've done planted aquariums and have had a hell of a time controlling microbes that come in on plants, so I have become a bit more hard core in this respect.

[Charles8088]

If one side is 90 you dont need belly heat.

No Belly heat isnt needed, any heat that will give the cold blooded animal a body temp of 90 Hot Spot and a cool spot of 80.

Got it now. Thank you.

...the only practical way to control mites in a bio-active set up is to be OCD about preventing them...

I thought the little buggers that are already in the bioactive takes care of the mites. Would suck to take apart the tank and sterilize, after its all set up and working.

Overall... I like the sound of "bioactive". I'm sure its attractive to most people... when it works the way its intended. So, as I get ready to get my first BP, I'm going to set up a regular enclosure (NON-bioactive), the way I've been reading here, generally following the Glass Enclosure Setup instructions. After I get a better idea, and experience under the belt of caring for a BP, and getting better at tank parameters, then I'm going to probably setup something a bit nicer. If I convince myself enough to do it, maybe I will start a bioactive on the side, with no pets, just to slowly take my time and get it working. And, if it works, I can move the snake in there. This, only after the main tank is working and the ball is comfortable in his new surroundings. Tanks are not an issue. I have glass tanks. Though, ultimately, I'd like to get a T8. Space for putting the tanks, THAT is the issue. 48x24 is a bit hard... 36x18 is not... that's the glass I'm gong to start with. But, I WILL find a spot for the T8... don't know where yet, but I will.

Actually... here's a question... two questions really...

Coming from the fish/aquarium hobby, I equate setting up the bioactive tank to "cycling a fish tank" before the fish go in. If I set up the bioactive, I would probably give it some time to finish "cycling" before I put the snake in. How long does it take for the tank to be ready for breaking everything down? 1 week? 2 weeks? more?

And, second... how do you KNOW its ready, without having a snake in there?

[Slither Seeker]

the best way to cycle a fish tank is dosing with amonia before the fish are added. you could get things going by adding nutrients but I don't know of any set time or system. it's a less common approach with reptiles in general and perhaps even less with BP's since morphs and breeding seem to be so popular. folks seem to go for the simpler and more controlable approach since they are often dealing with large collections.

[LiveBreatheAdapt]

I'm curious about an update/success? I've setup a few bio active tanks for my Crested/Gargoyle Geckos and dying to set one up for my BP's but having the same issue as you. Searching online I come up with zero solutions regarding heat. The UTH would would actually interfere with the plants (no plants on that side) in addition to the glass tank (In my case my Exo front open tanks) would IMMEDIATELY CRACK if any water (from daily misting for plants/clean up crew) drained downward; which is the entire purpose of the drainage layer. I'm 100% correct on that statement because it happened with my initial set up attempt (bottom cracked immediately upon misting the tank). Also pick you plants correctly- Bromeliads are standard for geckos but BP's would trample. Snake tongue plants are a good choice but then again they grow tall and BP tanks are often low height etc... I'm definitely looking forward to your updates and any further advice from the community

[distaff]

This is an older thread, but I'll add my perspective in case the OP gets back to it. I don't have a BP, but I've kept both a king and a corn in planted tanks for over a year. I also keep fish.

I think "bio-active" is a misnomer when it comes to relative large animals in standard size glass enclosures. The term works better for smaller animals like dart frogs, whose waste is so small, that the usual clean up crew of spring tails, pill bugs, earth worms and microbes can break it down efficiently. A snake enclosure will still require cleaning - the piles are too big, and the contaminated area should be removed as soon as the waste is detected.

I know of no critters that will effectively fight snake mites. IIRC, according to Vosjoli (and agree with slither seeker), one must simply prevent their introduction in the first place. I expect the only way to eradicate them would be to entirely dump the tank contents, and start over with the usual miteicide protocol.

I would not liken the planted enclosure exactly to "cycling" a fish tank. You are not so much concerned with the microflora establishing in a planted viv, as you are getting the plants to root securely enough to withstand a heavy BP. I introduced both my slender smaller animals as soon as the transplants were in.

My heat sources are radiant heat panels at the ceiling, and UTH heat pads that are inside the tank, not underneath. This placement is "off label," so to speak, so do so at your own risk. However, I don't see why my t-stat controlled heaters pose any extra danger. they are attached to a underside slab of stryofoam set on top of the substrate for a hide. The snake crawls under the styrofoam and gets back heat. This arrangement does make for an extra cord that has to exit the enclosure in some way, easy if you have an Exo-terra, less easy if you have the standard Zilla screen tops on a tank. We keep a VERY cold house in the winter (sometimes 55F) which is why I run two heat sources when it is could. Summers, I just run the UTH's.

Hope that helps.