Switching from live mice to f/t rats !!!HELP!!!

[s.chapman]

I bought two 2-year-old Ball pythons one is a female (silverstreak named Stella) the other is a male (a cinnamon pinstripe named Gabriel). The only thing they've ever eaten is live mice and the breeder just put the mice in with these snakes. Now what I want to accomplish is to switch these guys over to f/t rats introduced by forcepts and for them to be in a different enclosure when being fed... anybody know how to do this? This is the first time I've ever bought a ball python let alone 2 this old from someone else rather than getting them as a hatchling and raising them how I see fit. i've never had a problem with a ball python rejecting food until now and now I have no idea how to not only switch them from live to F/T but also from mice to rats and getting them used to being handled briefly before feedings. I'm feeling like I'm in a little over my head here, any suggestions would be appreciated.

[zina10]

I've converted snakes to FT quite often. Some of them were rescues. Rough, beat up imports. Some of which needed medical intervention before feeding.

They ALL eventually took FT.

What I would do first is to set them up correctly. If they have eaten regularly, it won't hurt them to miss a few meals while you change (improve) their setups.

Separate them. Not just for feeding. But for good. They each need to have their own enclosure. Then make sure your husbandry is SPOT ON. Meaning the setup needs to have the correct size (not to big) have hides, correct heat and humidity. No wide open or exposed spaces.

Once you have them each set up the right way, just wait AT LEAST a week if not 10 days for them to settle in. During that time, do not handle them. They don't need to be handled all the time to be "tame". Until they thrive (healthy and eating) under your care, no handling. Just look in on them every so often.

After the 10 days are over heat up a appropriate sized rats. I like to defrost them in cold water for a few hours and then put them in hot water for 10 minutes, dump water and refill with fresh hot water, wait 10 minutes and repeat. Basically 3 times you want to start with hot water and wait 10 to 15 minutes in between. Take the rat, wrap in paper towels or a old towel you won't use, rub the fur a bit to dry and be fluffy (once they are converted nicely you don't really have to do that) and then offer it to the snake. Ideally the snake is in a hide or some corner. Do the "I'm alive dance" with the Rat. IF the snake doesn't take it, lay down the rat near the snake and LEAVE THEM BE. Check in morning if the rat is gone.

If that don't work. Wait 10 more days, try again.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

For best results you want to do it one step at the time because going from live mice to f/t rats is a lot more complicated.

I would suggest that you do either live mice to f/t mice if it works keep feeding f/t mice for 5 feedings than offer f/t rats.

Or do live mice to live rats (same size to make the transition a little easier) than after 5 live rats switch to f/t.

And do not handle prior to feeding you are setting your snake up for failure and yourself up to get tagged.

[s.chapman]

Ok so basically I'm waiting for them to get hungry? Then what? You can't wait out a BP, you'll lose and put the snake at risk. I know this because I know of people who've tried this method and failed. Also they've never been housed together unless breeding. The breeder they came from kept them in a snake rack and I like to keep my snakes in 40 gallon 36x19x18 exo terra terrariums which they have been put in since I purchased them and my husbandry is spot on. So I need advice on how to properly:

1. Switch from live to f/t and what to do if starving them out doesn't work
2. Switch from mice to rats and what to do if starving them out doesn't work and
3. Get them to feed in a SEPARATE enclosure when they're used to having their live food tossed in their bin

I need a little bit more (a lot more) to go on then just starve them because trying to get them to eat and they don't is basically what they're doing to themselves anyhow.

[s.chapman]

I don't want to continue feeding these 2 in their primary enclosure though because doing so will also set me up to get "tagged" because they'll start to think that me reaching into their tank means food ergo me getting bitten. So how do I get them used eating outside their tanks? Also rats are illegal in Alberta so I can't do live mice to live rats.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

You need to have them house individually and fed in their enclosure and use tough love and common sense anyone trying to switch a BP and ending up failing and putting the snake at risk is not very smart or does not have much common sense.

The first thing to know is that tough love requires good body weight and ease to switch requires optimum husbandry.

I would expect properly cared for 2 years old to have a good body weight allowing then to go months without food, and if you are unconfortable doing so offer f/t and nothing if not eaten doing that for 3 weeks than on week 4 offer live if it's still does not work than back at it again for 3 weeks. That method cannot endanger any snake especially considering that they are over fed in captivity anyway.

[s.chapman]

There's no way to get them to eat in a secondary enclosure like a tote? My pastel gets put in a tote and eats fine, I've never had a problem with him so why can't I train the 2 year olds the same? Is there a way or do you just not know of a way because you never learned?

[zina10]

I think you've been given quite a LOT more then to "starve them out".

I wasn't clear on them having been housed together or not. If they are not, that is great.

Even with your husbandry being spot on, moving an adult Ball Python from a rack system to a larger enclosure, is quite the change. Especially for a Ball Python who seems to love small/dark places.

However...it can be done.

Patience is the key. Like its been said, if they were well fed then it will not hurt them at all to miss a few meals. They will not "starve out".

Best thing would be to leave them completely alone until you get them to eat. No handling. Only offering food every 7 days or so. They will not starve, you have a good couple of month before even getting any kind of worried. Most likely they are very stressed. The change in enclosure. Then being handled. Being removed to another container to eat. Being offered different food. You need to slow it down and go step by step.

So again, in my humble opinion you should leave them be. Then try to feed inside their enclosure after a few days with a nicely heated up rodent. I'm no fan of removing them to another tub for feeding. I never saw the logic in that. I've always fed in their enclosure and never had any trouble. If they think its feeding time and you reach in to remove them to the "feeding tub" you could still be tagged. Even more so because they will think being removed from their enclosure means feeding.

If mine are in feeding mode (most every night it seems) and I want to handle them, I simply let them know its not time to eat. If they are excited and ready to strike...I simply have a ball cap or a piece of paper or whatever is handy, and gently touch the top of their head. They know it means "no food". Spraying a tiny spritz of water from the misting bottle does the same. They calm down and I can remove them. Again, ONLY if they are excited and thinking about food and I don't want to get tagged when taking them out.

However, if your mind is made up to feed them in a separate bin, all you can do, is keep trying. But trying less often will help getting them to de-stress in between...

Good luck

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I don't want to continue feeding these 2 in their primary enclosure though because doing so will also set me up to get "tagged" because they'll start to think that me reaching into their tank means food ergo me getting bitten. So how do I get them used eating outside their tanks? Also rats are illegal in Alberta so I can't do live mice to live rats.

Actually quite the contrary animals being fed in there enclosure do not mistake your hand for food this is the oldest myth among new keepers that still persist.

However the opposite is very true moving the animal to a second area for feeding will get you tagged, why? Because you are attempting to move an animal in feeding mode (and they can be in feed mode hours before and after feedind). Not to mention that the move can stress this species enough to stress them and lead to food refusal.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[s.chapman]

Well then I guess I'll tell my other BP's that they're backwards because the ones I tub feed have never ever even attempted to 'tag' me they don't tense up, recoil back, nothing. They wait to be picked up and that is all because when I open their tank it is either to clean, give fresh water, or to pick them up to either cuddle or put them in the tub for feeding. The tub tells them when it's ready to feed not their tank opening. snakes are smarter than people give them credit for. The only thing I found to be a useful piece of information on this thread was that I need to take baby steps so thank you for that insight. Going forward I have faith that Stella and Gabriel will convert from live mice to f/t rats in time and they will learn to eat in their feeding tub and not in their enclosure because the condition in which they were living has taught them that their tank opening = food which = feeding mode which = bite first ask questions later so Deborah I think it is you who are wrong in feeding your BP's in their enclosure and tub feeding is not a myth for newbies because I am experienced on BP husbandry and feeding techniques and the outcomes they produce but this is the first time I have taken sub-adults from a breeder since I prefer to raise my own from hatchlings for this exact reason, these snakes were strictly breeding snakes which meant they were rarely handled and their food was dropped in their drawer which made these BP's wild and unpredictable in a sense and I REFUSE to let them stay that way! Stella and Gabriel will be stressed for a little while until they get used to how things work when you're a part of a family instead of being used just as a cash cow but once they've adjusted they will be all the better for it and instead of being jumpy, scared, nervous, and untrusting they'll be comfortable and at ease and that's when they'll be able to let their personalities shine through. I am also aware that BP's are secretive creatures and by handling them even briefly before feeding even if it's just from their tank to their tub COULD stress them out is not accurate at all. If you tub feed from day 1 the snake is not stressed at all, the outcome is actually quite the opposite. Just like handling, the more you do it the more they don't mind. My pastel loves to be handled because he gets 1 of 2 rewards out of it: 1. He gets a warm body to sleep on or 2. He gets a nice juicy rat to sink his fangs into but not until he is in his tub which smells like his food and also I feed him with forcepts so he never associates my hand/smell with food ergo he doesn't even think of striking at me. Out of the 10 years I've had BP's I've been struck at once and that was my first year owning a BP and she was a sub-adult given to me by a friend who also rarely handled her and fed her in her tank so Ill stick to what works for me and ya'll can continue getting tagged. lol. Ciao.