Risks of live feeding

[Miranda]

This was shared over facebook and I wanted to pass along the message. This may be a no brainier to us who have kept snakes for a long time, but even I was shocked at the extent of damage a rat can do, and I think it was pretty cool of the owner to raise awareness of their mistake.

Warning! Pictures are pretty graphic
https://www.facebook.com/aeahgeorgia...84666568369136

[John1982]

Sad as it is to see these pictures, it is refreshing when they're not simply being used as "evidence" against feeding live. They admit that this was 100% the result of keeper error and explain how to properly offer live - i.e., supervised.

[Reinz]

That is so sad. It's a tough way for an owner to get educated.

[Macropodus]

The message reads, in part, "...no negative comments please! Any negative comments will be deleted... When a live rat is left in a cage with a snake, and the snake does not eat it (this snake was in shed, which is why he refused food), many times the rat will turn on the snake. ... If you have to feed live (and we understand there are some snakes that will just not accept dead prey), then you need to supervise the snake until it has finished eating. If they don't eat, it needs to be removed. NEVER leave a live prey item unattended with a snake..."

The author is clearly biased in his/her beliefs and is making an attempt to use this isolated example in his/her arsenal in much the same way a believer of human-caused global warming attempts to use an unseasonably hot Summer. The message even uses the similar admonishment of blocking any comments which don't quite fit his/her agenda - this to quell any would-be dissenters.

It could have been written much more objectively, e.g. "Don't attempt to feed snakes in shed, regardless of whether F/T or live. If, when snakes are not in shed, you do feed live, always offer a much smaller prey item (even as little as 50% smaller) than that which can be ingested. This may entail thinking outside the box and acting outside parameters of the commonly accepted norms, i.e. feeding prey items of less diameter than the snakes widest width and/or feeding more frequently than once a week.

Unless of course () you think that reptiles, which have been evolving since dinosaurs were pooping in puddles, naturally sought out prey as large as their widest width in lieu of smaller prey, and only once a week vs whenever opportunities arose. In which case please continue adhering to the commonly accepted norm."

I recall reading on this forum a message posted within the past month or so which stated something to the extent that small rats were the largest item that ever need be offered throughout the entirety of a BP's life regardless of the BP's size or age. This, by extension, applies to those BP's of >4000g, even though a BP of >4000g is capable of ingesting a 600g rat.

Experienced reptile hobbyists well know that finicky eaters are more likely to accept an undersized prey item vs one of "standard" size. The whole once-weekly-widest-width-dogma, though convenient and economical, should have long been retired. But I digress.

[DennisM]

Experienced reptile hobbyists well know that finicky eaters are more likely to accept an undersized prey item vs one of "standard" size. The whole once-weekly-widest-width-dogma, though convenient and economical, should have long been retired.

Experienced reptile hobbyists well know that the "dogma" you so despise works very well for an overwhelming number of BP keepers. Does it accurately reflect the feeding habits of wild BPs? No it does not. Neither does anything else about your captive environment reflect the environment of wild BPs. Must it be strictly adhered to? No it does not; I certainly don't. Is it a feeding method proven to be successful. Yes it is.

[Miranda]

That is so sad. It's a tough way for an owner to get educated.

It really is, but I'm glad they shared their experience. I feel this could be a common mistake with new owners who may not realize the danger.

Sad as it is to see these pictures, it is refreshing when they're not simply being used as "evidence" against feeding live. They admit that this was 100% the result of keeper error and explain how to properly offer live - i.e., supervised.

I agree! I have a snake that has eaten live her whole life, and would not switch to f/t. It's not inherently bad to feed live, and I appreciate that the post talked about how to safely​ feed live to prevent awful situations like this.

[Reinz]

..............................


I agree! I have a snake that has eaten live her whole life, and would not switch to f/t. It's not inherently bad to feed live, and I appreciate that the post talked about how to safely​ feed live to prevent awful situations like this.

I believe most snakes are capable of switching, regardless of how long they've been on live.

A few years back I felt that an overwhelming majority of the members here were anti-live with many looking down at folks who fed live. Maybe I was defensive since I was feeding live at the time. However, a few threads popped up and many live feeding keepers spoke out. Since then it seems that the hardcore frozen camp became much more tolerant. Just my perception at the time.

Having said that, after seeing similar pictures as posted here, and talking on a another board with someone who's snake suffered a violent attack, AND my BP was attacked with little damage, I decided to switch to frozen myself.

Four out of Six of my snakes were adults. Every single previous keeper said that the snake would never switch. These snakes were: 2 @2 years (CCP), 1 @10years (Boa), 1@12 years (BP), 1@ unknown (Boa). Everyone of these snakes switched with some effort and a lot of patience with tough love. I also switched a one year old Jungle Carpet from live MICE to frozen rats, which is considered very difficult, as well as the two, two year old Coastal Carpets which were on live mice.

I'm no brilliant super keeper and I have limited experience. Most of my knowledge came from the fine friendly folks here. I'm not saying every snake will switch. However if you put the extra effort into it you will may surprised. Plus you reap the rewards of safety, convenience, and major cost savings.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Yes it's a no brainer people keep perpetuating their F/T agenda based on graphic pictures that often have a story , one of leaving a rodent in a cage for days without food or water and this does not represent RESPONSIBLE live feeding. This is not just a rat bite, this is a rat that has been gnawing on the snake a bite is something quick that is not it takes time and if a rat has that much time to make that kind of damage the person doing the feeding is just irresponsible.

Most people having an issue with live feeding have very limited experience, sometimes none at all, they just see a picture and run with it and that is sad.

Can live feeding be dangerous? Not if done properly and for that people need to be EDUCATED, what this post does is not educating, it's scaring people, that not our mission here.

People should feed what they feel comfortable with and do so based on knowledge not fear, knowledge they should get from experience people not from graphic pictures not being representative of live feeding.

I have fed well over 20000 more like 25000 live preys (but I stop counting a while ago, and I know many people who have fed a lot more. Number of incidents? ZERO, Why? Because there is a proper way to do things.


Oh and I am not anti F/T I also feed F/T, I am just pro education and against ignorance.

[Miranda]

Perhaps I should elaborate that I didn't share this to prevent people from feeding live or to try to perpetuate some kind of agenda, just what can happen if it's not done responsibly (feeding f/t irresponsibly can be dangerous too, moral of this thread was simply to be careful and use your noggin when feeding). I both live feed and F/T feed and every keeper should do what they think is best for their animals. Sorry if it seemed that way! (:

@Deborah - How long do you leave a rat in with a snake before removing?
@Reinz - Was there a certain strategy that worked for you in converting a live feeder to F/T?

[Reinz]

Perhaps I should elaborate that I didn't share this to prevent people from feeding live or to try to perpetuate some kind of agenda, just what can happen if it's not done responsibly (feeding f/t irresponsibly can be dangerous too, moral of this thread was simply to be careful and use your noggin when feeding). I both live feed and F/T feed and every keeper should do what they think is best for their animals. Sorry if it seemed that way! (:

@Deborah - How long do you leave a rat in with a snake before removing?
@Reinz - Was there a certain strategy that worked for you in converting a live feeder to F/T?

For me, I believe the most important thing was to be absolutely sure that they were ravenously hungry. I never even offered frozen until I had skipped a feeding, even if that was a month. I made sure that they tracked me in an S shape or were cage aggressive, or they struck the doors as I walked by. I next teased them for a few minutes by scenting with a hair dryer. This way, they would slam a shoe if I stuck it in the cage.

For the mouser snakes I mixed the rats with mice in the same bag in the freezer during their "forced" fast.
I fed the frozen mouse first, followed by a rat.

These changes all worked on the first time and every time thereafter.



Elvira was on live for 12 years. Frozen now for 2 years.