Is this substrate ok?

[Nathaniel1989]

You can use Pine (yes I said it now let's get the popcorn), you can use aspen, you can use cypress mulch (including some blends).

Not sure where you are located but if you are set on Aspen here is where I get mine http://www.petfooddirect.com/product...ressed-bedding

I have a fairly large number of enclosures so I order 6 at the time and get free shipping.

You can also find it locally in feed store, tractor supply some walmarts

To be fair a few people on a few forums say pine is ok - but Its deemed poisonous - So I wouldnt bother anyway.

[MarkS]

To be fair a few people on a few forums say pine is ok - but Its deemed poisonous - So I wouldnt bother anyway.

When you know people who have been in the hobby for 30-40 years and have raised several generations of snakes on pine bedding it gets hard to credit the whole 'it's dangerous' idea.

[AntTheDestroyer]

When you know people who have been in the hobby for 30-40 years and have raised several generations of snakes on pine bedding it gets hard to credit the whole 'it's dangerous' idea.

I think a very similar argument can and has been made about asbestos. Are you saying you do not believe pine oil is toxic to snakes? Really you would need to look at the length of life in a collection raised on pine compared to that of one not. Just because an animal survives on it does not mean it is not harmful. Really when there are other viable choices, why risk it?

[MarkS]

I think a very similar argument can and has been made about asbestos. Are you saying you do not believe pine oil is toxic to snakes? Really you would need to look at the length of life in a collection raised on pine compared to that of one not. Just because an animal survives on it does not mean it is not harmful. Really when there are other viable choices, why risk it?

No, I do not believe that it is harmful, I think the entire 'toxic pine oil' issue has been blown way out of proportion. Snakes that have been kept on pine their entire lives have produced many clutches of healthy babies and have lived long and healthy lives. Show me ANY study that proves that pine bedding is harmful to snakes.

[AntTheDestroyer]

No, I do not believe that it is harmful, I think the entire 'toxic pine oil' issue has been blown way out of proportion. Snakes that have been kept on pine their entire lives have produced many clutches of healthy babies and have lived long and healthy lives. Show me ANY study that proves that pine bedding is harmful to snakes.

I am not sure this specific study exists, but there are tons on the toxicity and problems associated with pine and it's close relative cedar in other organisms. I am not saying you are wrong but don't you at least feel as a person recommending a potentially dangerous product that the burden of proof is on you? Your proof so far is anecdotal. Many things have changed in the snake hobby over the years for the betterment of the animals even though they seemed to do well enough to breed in their previous condition.

[Coluber42]

I don't know about the pine debate... but could it be that part of the issue is that softwood beddings may often contain a mixture of woods and not tell you exactly what's in them? It could be that pine by itself is OK, but that other things (cedar, spruce juniper, etc?) that might be mixed in are not?
No dog in that fight, just wondering.

Personally, I would not use it. If it says "weichholz" and doesn't say exactly what kind (I do speak German and read everything on the package I could see in the photos), it probably isn't pure pine anyway.

You could try CareFresh: https://www.omlet.de/shop/hamster/ha...160b486c1cf957

(I don't know that website at all, it just came up when I was hunting for that product in Germany).

Anyway, CareFresh is made from recycled paper. It's soft and absorbent, doesn't make dust, and is easy to clean. I used it for years with a corn snake and a ball python. I switched to aspen with the new guy, but I think I might go back. Some people think there is more risk of problems if the snake swallows bits of it than if they swallow a couple of wood shavings, but my experience was that it didn't tend to stick to prey items much, plus the ball python always compacted his down pretty quickly, so there weren't really loose bits of it to get stuck on the food anyway.

The down side of it is that it is harder to keep a thin layer over a UTH, but it's not impossible. You can also keep the UTH area clear of bedding and just use a paper towel there, with the bedding all over the edges so the snake doesn't go underneath.

[MarkS]

but don't you at least feel as a person recommending a potentially dangerous product that the burden of proof is on you? Your proof so far is anecdotal.

No I don't feel that the burden of proof is on me because I don't believe it is harmful. I have PERSONAL experience keeping snakes on pine for many many years and they were fine. I don't repeat rumors I hear on the internet just because someone else says something is bad, I give advice according to my personal experience. Like I said, I've known some keepers who have kept snakes on pine for decades without any problems, anecdotal evidence or not that's good enough for me.

[PitOnTheProwl]

Kiln dried makes a huge difference in shavings...

[chrid16371]

Kiln dried makes a huge difference in shavings...

I work in a saw mill and 99% of are wood is hardwoods with the 1% being pine. For people who don't know a kiln is a big heater that is used to dry wood. When kiln drying pine it just dries the water and oil but once you add moisture (humidity in enclosure) again you get the majority of the oil back. A kiln does not get hot enough to evaporate all the pine oil but you loose a little. But I won't sit here and say that its not safe for reptiles. I believe some species may be more prone to pine then others. I also think that an individual of one species could have a reaction and others of the same species might not. I did read one study on pine and reptiles and very few herps showed symptoms and others of the same species showed none and they concluded from that it can take years for any symptoms to be visible and you may never even see any in the lifetime of the herp and it seemed the most were unaffected. Someone on another herp forum I belong to did the study themselves and posted the results years ago and for the life of me I can't find it or remember who did it. It was more in depth then what I wrote including the reptiles they tested. I didn't want to post till I did find it but unfortunately I can't. Basically if your in doubt then don't do it, this is why I don't use pine. But I can't argue with years and years of people using it with bp with no I'll affect.