Baby Ball in critical condition - how to switch from tube feeding to self-feeding

[Ellizaryn]

I'm new, and sorry for the long post. I'll try bolding the important bits.



I acquired a juvenile BP the day after Christmas (a gift from my husband; I'd been asking for one for a while). The pet store gave me the feeding chart indicating that they got her in late November. She refused 3 feeds before taking fuzzies the last two weeks before we purchased her. We brought her home 48 hours after her last feed and she was blue-eyed.

She had a beautiful shed about a week later; settled in nicely. She wasn't taking any meals, but we weren't concerned as she had just shed, it was a new environment, and it was winter. When she refused her 3rd meal, she measured out at 20in and 60g, which I knew was on the small side, but I wasn't sure about her exact age and she was very active. She was drinking, defecating and urinating on a regular basis.

Towards the end of February, she started acting more lethargic--hiding more, and acting limp and indifferent when being handled. She weighed out at 53g and was starting to look dehydrated. I immediately took her to the vet.

The reptile specialist walked me through everything that could be wrong. I had already tried everything I could to get her to eat. I adjusted her housing and heating, tried a few things that I hadn't done yet (feeding live, shoebox isolation, etc.). When she dropped down to 49g, the vet taught me how to tube feed her.

I fed her 1.5ml of reptile food nightly, as instructed by my vet. My baby gained weight steadily, jumping back up to 60g within a week. Pooping, peeing, drinking, heat-regulating. By her 8th feeding or so, it was hard to get the tube in because she was so active. The tube doesn't seem to bother her at all, and she's back to her active self as soon as the tube is out. She's never been a snapper/striker, which is now starting to concern me (for feeding purposes). I called the office and the tech (not the vet) told me to try fasting for a few days and then introducing solid food. She dropped weight so rapidly before, I really am scared of fasting her again.

Nagini was on f/t fuzzy mice at the pet store. I dropped down to pinkies, but she's acting indifferent, if not scared of them. I've tried both live and f/t. This is my first BP. She's gotta be at least 5 months old. Isn't 60g still really low for 20in? What should her target weight be?

I'm wanting a second opinion on how to feed her (my vet is out of the office until Tuesday). I'm really worried about the fasting and want to continue with the tube until she's at a healthy weight--but I'm concerned that she'll either get stressed out by or dependent on the tube feeding. How long can she be tube-feed before it's just a helpless cycle?

I've been thinking to maybe try force-feeding solid food. She is surprisingly tolerant of having her jaw forced open--has never once tried to tag me. I picked up some frozen pinkies tonight. I offered her a fuzzy last night (I originally offered it live a week ago, then froze it and offered thawed). One of her hides is an upturned bowl with the bottom cut out of it. She doesn't have a problem getting in and out of it. Dropped her and the mouse in this hide overnight in the darkest room in the house. Woke up to a very stinky cage and an indifferent snake, both still in the hide.

Next Steps?

60g today; last meal 48 hours ago. Weight held. Urination regular.
Last meal offered 24 hours ago, f/t fuzzy, isolated overnight.
When should I (try to) feed her next?
How long should I continue to force feed?
At what weight should I consider her healthy?

My vet will be back in the office on Tuesday, just wanted some other opinions.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Not sure what your setup is but in general 99% of the time this type of feeding issues are related directly to husbandry and stress.

Assisting or force feeding or tube feeding is not something you want to do long term as it is very stressful, what you want to do is see if husbandry change can be made so the animal start eating for you.

The more you will tube feed or for feed this animal the more it will be stress, the more stress the less likely it is to eat on it's own, the animal knows how to eat.

There is no target weight there is healthy look so this is what you goal is.

Offering fuzzies and pinkies could have been an issue as they are to small even for your BP and may not be recognize as prey but what I am interested in is your setup can you give me a run down on your setup, tub size, hide type and size, temps, substrate, do you handle this BP other than for feeding.

[Kibbleswhites]

Don't bother the snake for a week. Keep the enclosure very dark, use a towel or something to keep the light out. Give it a live rat pup with its eyes still closed. Weigh the prey and pick one 9 to 12 grams and drop it in very quietly at night. Leave the rat pup in there, no peeping, for 2 days. After 48 hours check the tub, the pup will either be gone or dead but can not hurt your snake with closed eyes. If it does not eat it, clean the enclosure give fresh water and repeat. I would try that two or maybe three times then move to assist feed as opposed to force feed or tube feed. That at least lets the snake swallow on its own. If you move to assist feed, choose a rat pup closer to 9 grams. There are a ton of posts on how to assist feed but me, I grab the sake by the head, pry the mouth open with the prey's (nice and warm) nose, then put the prey in the mouth as far back as I can without shoving down the throat, then hold until the snake starts to chomp. This may take several tries. I usually only try 5 or fewer times before I call it quits for a few days. After they have taken a few assist feed meals they will start to wrap the prey after it is put into the mouth. This is the signal that they are ready to kill their own meal. Good luck.

[DennisM]

what Deborah says. there is something unsettling about this whole story. force/tube/assist feeding is something that should only be necessary in the most extreme of circumstances. I'd bet that less aggressive feeding practices and appropriate environmental adjustments will result in a feeding BP. additional stress is never a successful approach.

[Kokorobosoi]

Deb's advice is spot on, and we definitely need more information about the enclosure and equipment being used.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Give it a live rat pup with its eyes still closed. Weigh the prey and pick one 9 to 12 grams

Sorry but this is just not gonna work. First regarding the name a pup is considered at to be over 2 weeks old, the sizes you mentioned correspond to rat pink and fuzzy rats. Names do matter for the person that goes out to buy the feeder.

Whether you are dealing with non started or non thriving animals you want to offer mice, they are more enticing compare to rats, there is also an issue with the size you are recommending knowing that this animal has been reluctant to eat, the smallest hopper which are usually around 7 grams will be best in this case.

Advising a 15% to 20% percent feed for this type of issue is just not recommended, the animal has been reluctant to eat and is weaken so smaller is better.

[bcr229]

...what I am interested in is your setup can you give me a run down on your setup, tub size, hide type and size, temps, substrate, do you handle this BP other than for feeding.

I think these questions need to be answered first, or more specifically:
- What kind of enclosure? Tank, tub, hatchling rack, PVC/melamine reptile enclosure, or ?
- What are the ambient air temperature and floor surface temperature on the cool and warm sides of the enclosure, and what kind of thermometers are you using to measure them?
- What heat sources are you using (heat lamp, UTH, RHP, etc), and how are they regulated (rheostat/dimmer, thermostat, etc)?
- What is the humidity in the enclosure and what kind of hygrometer are you using?
- Did you buy the snake from a pet store that specializes in exotic animals, or did you get it from a big box store (PetSmart/Petco)?

[BCS]

Whether you are dealing with non started or non thriving animals you want to offer mice, they are more enticing compare to rats

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Just because one animal may like something else, does not mean the next will. You may eat when chocolate is offered, but not me, I prefer salt over sugar... its all personal. I personally find that most of my snakes prefer rats over mice, but different experiences are talking here. I am not saying your snakes prefer rats over mice just because mine does.

Now back to the original poster, are you able to get ASFs (african soft furred rats)? This is my go to for picky eaters. Get a live one. I know its hard to feed live but sometimes your BP doesn't give you the choice. I agree with the tube feeding, its definitely not going to fix the feeding issue. Don't keep trying mice though, your BP just may not be into them. Try rats, ASFs, even hamsters.

And also, do not feed it outside of it's enclosure. Feed in its home. Pulling it out can cause stress and make your BP not eat. If your BP is in its hide, leave her there and throw in a live prey item into the hide. But be watchful that the prey item does not harm your BP.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Just because one animal may like something else, does not mean the next will. You may eat when chocolate is offered, but not me, I prefer salt over sugar... its all personal. I personally find that most of my snakes prefer rats over mice, but different experiences are talking here. I am not saying your snakes prefer rats over mice just because mine does.

Now back to the original poster, are you able to get ASFs (african soft furred rats)? This is my go to for picky eaters. Get a live one. I know its hard to feed live but sometimes your BP doesn't give you the choice. I agree with the tube feeding, its definitely not going to fix the feeding issue. Don't keep trying mice though, your BP just may not be into them. Try rats, ASFs, even hamsters.

And also, do not feed it outside of it's enclosure. Feed in its home. Pulling it out can cause stress and make your BP not eat. If your BP is in its hide, leave her there and throw in a live prey item into the hide. But be watchful that the prey item does not harm your BP.

How many hatchling have you started? How many animals failing to thrive have you put back on track? You can disagree but when offered a first meal you will get a higher percentage of success (hatchling taking their first meal successfully first time offered) if that first meal is a mouse (that comes from someone that used to start everything on rats and no longer does)


Not to mention that the animal in this case when it was eating was eating mice so trying to switch is the last thing that needs to be done at this point it need to feed what it used to feed on and again mice are more enticing.

Do my snake prefer rats over mice? Yes they do but my snakes however are not the issue here.

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[Ellizaryn]

She's currently in a 10 gallon (12"W x 20"L x 10"H) plastic tub) with some vent holes. The vet's report suggested a 20"L x 10"W for a juvenile. I have a UTH taped to the bottom with the thermostat set to about 93F, the probe taped to the inside of the tank at the hottest spot, under her substrate (paper towels). The tub has half-inch rubber feet to give the UTH some air. The temp directly above this area is about 83-85F. It takes up a little over 1/3 of the floor space. The ambient temperature of the entire enclosure is at a very steady 80-82 during the day and 78-80 at night. I don't turn down the UTH because I'm having trouble keeping heat in. The humidity is a very steady 60%.

As for the inside: left is warm hide, the log is on the cool side, and the middle is water dish (it's under a turned bowl to keep it from spilling). It was hard to get a picture of her whole body, as she moves very quickly throughout the tub before picking which hide she wants. She tends to favor the left (hot) one during the day and the log at night. The substrate is paper towels, and I replace them the moment they get soiled (about every 48 hours) and wash it out weekly.

This was Nagini last night, after about 20 minutes of hanging out on my shoulders under my shirt. When she's had enough, she slithers down my sleeve and starts wondering around--very, active, flicking her tongue and acting the curious escape artist.

Here is the current setup:





I've been concerned that there may not be enough of a gradient because this ceiling is too high and that the snake may also feel a bit insecure. I've been planning to adjust to a flatter tub like this: 6H" x 18W" x 29L":

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B...ilpage_o02_s00


Here are pictures from the week after we got her, just after her shed. She's about 18-19 inches.

Offering fuzzies and pinkies could have been an issue as they are to small even for your BP.

It was the vet who suggested going down to pinkies, due to how thin she is. I've tried both live and f/t pinkies and fuzzies. She acts almost scared of both presentations.

Don't bother the snake for a week. Keep the enclosure very dark, use a towel or something to keep the light out. Give it a live rat pup with its eyes still closed. Weigh the prey and pick one 9 to 12 grams and drop it in very quietly at night. Leave the rat pup in there, no peeping, for 2 days.

I tried week-long isolation before, trying to feed her in the dark. My vet told me to put Nagini in a small enclosure with a live, blind mouse overnight. Didn't work. I tried putting it in the snake's hide and she followed it in. The mouse immediately rolled out of the hide as though Nagini just kicked it out. As you can see, she is very thin.

There is no target weight there is healthy look so this is what your goal is.

Could you post some photos/links to healthy looking juveniles? I've only seen adolescents and adults. I wasn't entirely sure about her health when I first got her, but I knew she was very young and figured she would plump up in a better enviornment.

force/tube/assist feeding is something that should only be necessary in the most extreme of circumstances. I'd bet that less aggressive feeding practices and appropriate environmental adjustments will result in a feeding BP. additional stress is never a successful approach.

Vet gave me a list of tricks to try, but told me to bring her back in if she dropped to below 50g, which happened. She said she was concerned that the snake wouldn't be able to process a solid meal due to the fact that she hadn't eaten in so long and gave me a detailed lesson on how to tube feed, hoping it would get her metabolism going.

Did you buy the snake from a pet store that specializes in exotic animals, or did you get it from a big box store (PetSmart/Petco)?

PetSmart: she was a Christmas gift from my husband. If I had purchased it, I would have done more research on other options.