New BP, going on 4 weeks without eating.

[CobraCatcher]

Our first BP, Rosy who we have had for a bit over 2 years is thriving. Thanks to this forum and its great members.
She loves being held, and is so laid back and enjoyable, that we wanted to get another one.

We got Boots Dec 28th, and like Rosy, from PetSmart.
The paper that came with her stated that they received her Dec 23rd, and that they hadn't attempted a feeding over the 5 days.
We brought her home, set the tank up just like we did Rosy's. Her weight was 108 grams.
We limited any handling as she seemed a little on edge from all of the moving she had gone thru.

The following Sunday, Jan 10th, we tried to feed her a f/t pinky. She had no interest. Her weight was down to 106 grams.
We left her alone to settle in some more for another week.

That Sunday the 17th, another feeding attempt, and the same result, no interest. Her weight held at 106.
We held her throughout the week thinking maybe she needed to become acclimated to us. We handled her every other day. She was very content to be held, and active in the tank at night.

Another week goes by, so today we attempt another feeding. Same result, no interest. Her weight is now down to 103 grams.

Tank numbers are: Heat lamp side: 80-82 degrees. The UTH side, under the other hide is 86 degrees. Humidity is really hard to hold, but it fluctuates between 30% and 45%. We wet a towel on top of the tank, and have moist paper towels in the tank.

When she is held, she is active, and curious. She climbs up inside our shirt sleeves, around our arms and hands. Her color looks good, no signs of an upcoming shed, no RI symptoms or anything. Except for the 'not eating', she seems like a happy healthy snake.

I have read that some snakes go thru a 'fasting' period this time of year. Which leads to one of my questions.
How much weight loss is ok, and at what rate? She has lost 5 grams over 4 weeks.

At what point should we start to really be concerned? And if that point comes, what do we do?

[Sauzo]

First off a baby that small shouldn't fast. First a pinky mouse or rat is way too small for her. When I got Dottie, she was about 90g and I was feeding her fuzzy rats or hopper mice. That could possibly be why she is not eating, its just too small. Second you said heat lamp side and UTH side, those should be on the same side and it should be 88-90F on the hot side. Cool side can dip down to high 70s but I personally try to keep cool side ambient around 80F. Third thing is I generally avoid handling my new snakes until they have eaten 3-4 times in a row. Once they are comfortable enough to eat regularly, then I start working on the friendship.

As for being concerned, is she looking skinny? Has she gone poop? Pee? Drinking water? 5 gram loss can come from any of that. But as for a little 106g baby not eating a month, I would definitely work on what I listed and then possibly get ready to assist feed if nothing for another 2-4 weeks especially if she starts looking skinny.

[Albert Clark]

Everything Sauzo said is the key! What size tank is the baby in? You probably need to work on cluttering up the tank with crumpled paper towels to reduce the voids and extra space. Hatchlings need tight space and very little room. You can also use artificial plants and plastics to take up more space.

[CobraCatcher]

First off a baby that small shouldn't fast. First a pinky mouse or rat is way too small for her. When I got Dottie, she was about 90g and I was feeding her fuzzy rats or hopper mice. That could possibly be why she is not eating, its just too small.

I'll give this a shot, it just seems that they would be too large for her following the '3/4 of the largest part of the snakes body' guideline.

Second you said heat lamp side and UTH side, those should be on the same side and it should be 88-90F on the hot side. Cool side can dip down to high 70s but I personally try to keep cool side ambient around 80F.

This is the first I've heard of the lamp and UTH on the same side. I set both of our tanks up according to this Sticky:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...With-Pictures!

Due to the access lid, we can't place the lamp in the center like the link shows. We have it off center towards the 'cool' side of the top.
I will try to increase the temp a bit more for the hot side by moving the lamp to the center.

As for being concerned, is she looking skinny? Has she gone poop? Pee? Drinking water? 5 gram loss can come from any of that. But as for a little 106g baby not eating a month, I would definitely work on what I listed and then possibly get ready to assist feed if nothing for another 2-4 weeks especially if she starts looking skinny.

We haven't seen any poop, and I'll have to look around a bit harder for any 'pee'. Not sure on her drinking, it seems she only comes out at night when we're in bed. We do have to add water to the bowl occasionally, but I think that's more due to evaporation.

Is there a 'safe' rate of weight loss that we should look for?

Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.

[CobraCatcher]

Everything Sauzo said is the key! What size tank is the baby in? You probably need to work on cluttering up the tank with crumpled paper towels to reduce the voids and extra space. Hatchlings need tight space and very little room. You can also use artificial plants and plastics to take up more space.

The tank is 20gals. We do have plants on both sides along with 2 hides to clutter up the tank. She loves the small hide, just like our first snake did.
We also have sheets of paper on the outside of one side in order for her to feel more secure in her new home.
I'll see if we can 'clutter' it up some more.
Thanks.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Tanks especially 20 gallons are not ideal for an animal that size at this time it's a matter of space and lack of security, you also cannot compare one animal to the other.

With an animal that size this is the type of setup you are looking at



6 Quarts Tub until the animal is 150/200 grams after that you are looking at a 10 gallons tank or 15 quarts tub.

Aspen bedding for added security (it allows BP to burrow if needed)

Max temp on the hot side 86/88

1 6 inches plastic flower pot saucer used as a hide



NO HANDLING until the animal eats at least 3 to 5 meals consecutively for you.

Give the animal a week to adjust than offer a LIVE small adult mouse (mice are more enticing and right now trying to switch an animal that is not well established is not the priority, the priority is to get the animal to become a consistent feeder)

SECURITY is PRIORITY NUMBER 1 and this has been proven to work.

[Sauzo]

My little gal LOVED those flower pot saucers. She even tried to hide under them when she was way too big for em. It looked like she was wearing em as a hat lol. So I upgraded her to her RBI hides.

[HospiceNHeartsRN]

I suspect the two issues are ones already mentioned, she isn't feeling secure in her enclosure and the food offered is too little.

For most animals bigger is better when it comes to enclosures, but not for ball pythons. A BP in the wild lives inside a termite mound... Very little space, very dark, and very secure. Open space will stress them out. Hides that are too big will stress them out. Ideally the hide should touch them on all sides, including the top. Even a little stress will make a snake hesitant to feed.

The next issue is prey size. You mention a "3/4 the widest part of body" rule. The actual rule is it should be the same size or slightly larger than the largest part of the snake's body. It should be big enough to leave a visible lump when swallowed. But even that is more for adult snakes.

For a snake under around 250 grams you want to focus on feeding 10 to 15% of body weight. So if she weighs 103g each feeding should be 10 to 15 g. A pinky mouse averages 1 to 3 g, so obviously FAR to small. Even the next size up, a fuzzy is usually 4 to 6 grams. Your snake should be eating a hopper sides mouse (usually 8 to 12 grams) every week.

I would put her in a much smaller enclosure, even a shoebox size, and keep it very dark. Don't handle for at least a few days. Then offer a hopper sized mouse. Make sure it is warm all the way through, as well as dry. It sometimes helps to warm the head up with a hair dryer right before feeding so it is really warm.
Deborah on this forum has a phenomenal plan for picky eaters, it is stickied on one of the threads, husbandry I believe.



Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk

[CobraCatcher]

Just to update my thread, (I HATE when a question/problem thread isn't updated with the results and/or solution from the OP), but Boots finally ate last night.

We bumped the food size up to bigger 'fuzzies' a week ago.
We left her alone for another full week, took her out last Sunday, attempted to feed even using a hair dryer to warm the mouse, she had no interest, we weighed her, she still held at 103 grams, so we put her back in her tank to let another week pass.

Yesterday we did the same, but this time she showed interest, but didn't strike. We did the hair dryer trick, and she snapped the mouse up, wrapped around it, adjusted her hold, and took it down.

So finally, Boots ate!
We can't pin point what did the trick since we tried all that was suggested aside from a smaller enclosure, but we did make it 'seem' smaller to her.
We adjusted the temps accordingly, kept the humidity closer to 50%, and limited handling and activity near her tank.
But I guess in the end, she was gonna eat on her terms, not ours. LOL

Thanks to all who offered help and advice it was sincerely appreciated.

[Slim]

Thank you for the update. Hopefully Boots will get on an eating streak for you